is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

SamKR wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice
It is no more or no less a vipassana practice than any other activity
Any other activity? :shock:
Well, sweeping is just a technique out of many; U Ba Khin tradition chose to use sweeping (which is only one aspect of U Ba Khin method). What is more important is whether there is cultivation of understanding about Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta, and whether there is reduction of Raga, Dosa, Moha, and if this is being achieved how is this practice no more a vipassana practice than any other activity? Do you think that Goenka teaches just to sweep without any understanding about anicca?
It is the context of an activity. We can add the context of the three characteristics on to any activity. As you say "What is more important is whether there is cultivation of understanding about Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta,". I don't think Goenka teaches just to sweep without any understanding. He gives the technique a framework. a context.

SamKR are you a Goenkaji student? Why does Goenkaji not want his students to do walking meditation? Are students discouraged from practicing techniques outside of the techniques taught by Goenka even if they are bona fide Theravada techniques??
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by mikenz66 »

Mr Man wrote: Why does Goenkaji not want his students to do walking meditation? Are students discouraged from practicing techniques outside of the techniques taught by Goenka even if they are bona fide Theravada techniques??
Back on E-Sangha someone gave a link to Goenka's reasoning, which was along the lines of wanting to pursue subtler sensations. I must admit, I found it difficult, since all previous retreats I'd done had half&half walking and sitting. Do other U Ban Kihn students also discourage walking?

:anjali:
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Ben
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Ben »

Mr Man wrote:.

SamKR are you a Goenkaji student? Why does Goenkaji not want his students to do walking meditation? Are students discouraged from practicing techniques outside of the techniques taught by Goenka even if they are bona fide Theravada techniques??
Well, if you attend one of his retreats, he does tell his students what to focus on while walking. It becomes more prominent during the long courses. As it is explained during the ten day course, the purpose is to get established in the theory and the practice, and so, the main focus will be on sitting meditation. And remember, he says himself that the ten day course is the "kindergarten" of Dhamma, and a "gradual path". More detail and changes to meditative practice are revealed during the long courses. And as for not allowing students to practice methods outside of the tradition, it's because what he is offering is instruction in one particular approach. It is an intense, immersive experience. Further, no one there is qualified to either instruct nor assist someone doing anything else.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Answer questions, show evidence, instead of running away from the requests for them.
I do answer questions. show evidence, explain my position etc. look back over the thread.
It took a page for you to show what you meant by isolation, and by that point your explanation had already been said to be applicable to any teacher.
then the fallacy* comments start (I don't see the relevance; you just want to argue) when you can not explain away the rebuttal, and then act like it never happened.

Tilt essentially made this prediction at the start.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:The talk by Ven Analayo that I linked to above: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 31#p223731" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some interesting comments about some of the various strands that have become popular in the West (Mahasi/Goenka/Pa Auk), and discusses some aspects of the rise of lay meditation in Burma, starting with the time of Ledi Sayadaw.

The introductory retreat talks by Patrick Kearney discuss the lay movement with a different emphasis (which is understandable, since Patrick was a monk in Burma and has a lot of experience teaching a Mahasi-based approach): http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/audio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the above talk Ven Analayo says that he currently does a body-sweeping technique, but with emphasis on the elements than the U Ban Kihn/Goenka vedana focus. He also has an interesting article about the U Ban Kihn/Goenka approach:
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... ations.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
50) "The Development of Insight – A Study of the U Ba Khin Vipassanā Meditation Tradition as Taught by S.N. Goenka in Comparison with Insight Teachings in the Early Dis­courses", Fuyan Bud­dhist Studies, 2011, vol. 6 pp. 151–174. download
:anjali:
Mike
Thanks for the links, Mike. I listened to most of Ven Analayo's talk yesterday, which was interesting. I wondered where he had learnt the sweeping technique.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Ben,
Ben wrote: Well, if you attend one of his retreats, he does tell his students what to focus on while walking.
I don't recall anything specific about walking (and it was something I was certainly listening out for, since it's so crucially important to my practice) but perhaps what you mean is that it would come under observing sensations/vedena in whatever you are doing, which I think was talked about at the very end of the retreat. (I probably am not recalling that too well, since it's several years ago.) There was certainly no instruction to go and deliberately spend time doing walking meditation, the emphasis seems to be on sitting so that one can observe very subtle sensations. It did seem to be really effective at achieving that.

:anjali:
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Ben »

Hi Mike
Its in the second half of the retreat and possibly closer to the end.
You are right, the instructions are not detailed because the focus is on sitting meditation. He does say that one should observe the dominant sensation of the moving part of the body during walking.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Answer questions, show evidence, instead of running away from the requests for them.
I do answer questions. show evidence, explain my position etc. look back over the thread.
It took a page for you to show what you meant by isolation, and by that point your explanation had already been said to be applicable to any teacher.
then the fallacy* comments start (I don't see the relevance; you just want to argue) when you can not explain away the rebuttal, and then act like it never happened.

Tilt essentially made this prediction at the start.
Cittasanto, I really don't want to, and don't feel I should have to keep going back over the earlier parts of this thread again and again. I'm not here just to justify every word I say and that is not what I see as the point of the discusion but if you read not the next post (after I first mention isolation) but the one after that I elaborate.

It is my perception that you just want to pick at everything I say. Not just on this thread. I would kindly ask that you take a step back
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

Cittasanto wrote:Answer questions, show evidence, instead of running away from the requests for them.
Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
I do answer questions. show evidence, explain my position etc. look back over the thread.
It took a page for you to show what you meant by isolation, and by that point your explanation had already been said to be applicable to any teacher.
then the fallacy* comments start (I don't see the relevance; you just want to argue) when you can not explain away the rebuttal, and then act like it never happened.

Tilt essentially made this prediction at the start.
Cittasanto, I really don't want to, and don't feel I should have to keep going back over the earlier parts of this thread again and again. I'm not here just to justify every word I say and that is not what I see as the point of the discusion but if you read not the next post (after I first mention isolation) but the one after that I elaborate.

It is my perception that you just want to pick at everything I say. Not just on this thread. I would kindly ask that you take a step back
can you answer any of the question I asked you?
instead of throwing your perceptions and personal opinions around answer the questions as has been requested (see first quote) or don't respond at all.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

Cittasanto wrote: can you answer any of the question I asked you?
Look back over the thread.
Cittasanto wrote: instead of throwing your perceptions and personal opinions around answer the questions as has been requested (see first quote) or don't respond at all.
It is my prerogative to answer or not answer, post or not post.
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

Ben wrote:
Mr Man wrote:.

SamKR are you a Goenkaji student? Why does Goenkaji not want his students to do walking meditation? Are students discouraged from practicing techniques outside of the techniques taught by Goenka even if they are bona fide Theravada techniques??
Well, if you attend one of his retreats, he does tell his students what to focus on while walking. It becomes more prominent during the long courses. As it is explained during the ten day course, the purpose is to get established in the theory and the practice, and so, the main focus will be on sitting meditation. And remember, he says himself that the ten day course is the "kindergarten" of Dhamma, and a "gradual path". More detail and changes to meditative practice are revealed during the long courses. And as for not allowing students to practice methods outside of the tradition, it's because what he is offering is instruction in one particular approach. It is an intense, immersive experience. Further, no one there is qualified to either instruct nor assist someone doing anything else.
Hi Ben, What are the changes to the practice which are later revealed? There is a quote from Sayagi U Ba Khin in Jack Kornfields book "Living Buddhist Masters - "with the awareness of the truth of anicca and or dukkha and or anatta.he develops in him what we may call the sparkling illumination of nibbana dhatu a power that dispels all impurities or poisons -the product of bad actions,which are the sources of his physical and mental ills.In the same way as fuel is burnt away by ignition,the negative forces[imputities or poisons]within are eliminated by nibbana dhatu which he generates with the true awareness of anicca in the course of meditation.the process of elimination should go until such time as both the mind and body are completely cleansed of such impurities or poisons." Jack Kornfield refers to nibbana dhatu as the "agent or mode of purification" does this all fit in with how Goenkaji teaches? Would penetrative insight a be substitute term we could use for nibbana dhatu or is nibbana dhatu something more from the perspective of your tradition?

I also believe that there is some kind of view about purity of energy within the tradition, which would explain the reluctance to share meditation facilities or to sit/practice with those from other traditions within the Theravada, is this correct? If it is so do you think it ij just a cultural thing, which has come out of Myanmar with the practice or is there more to it?

With New Years Metta
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: can you answer any of the question I asked you?
Look back over the thread.
OK so after checking SEVERAL times previously and again stop asking and show the goods.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p223720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p223734" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p223742" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You have not shown why you believe the body sweeping has "wrongly" become synonymous with vipassana. But you have said they have become synonymous, including "wrongly" only shows your opinion of the connection you think the two have, yet there is no demonstration of them being synonymous.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p223935" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
you have repeatedly claimed Goenka is isolationistic, yet after a page of discussing it and my explaining they are no different to anyone else, your only evidence was that they don't want the technique taught in a place that is eclectic. you haven't shown they are different from other groups here.
Teachers who led retreats in the Monastery I was at, always were from the circle of monasteries in some way.
But your responce to my dealing with this point was Ad hom. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p223721" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cittasanto wrote:Instead of throwing your perceptions and personal opinions around answer the questions as has been requested (see first quote) or don't respond at all.
It is my prerogative to answer or not answer, post or not post.
if you are not interested in discussing something you say make it clear from the start or don't complain when questioned about what you say. in other words "don't step up to bat, then cry about having the ball thrown at you."
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote: You have not shown why you believe the body sweeping has "wrongly" become synonymous with vipassana."
And the thing is that 'body sweeping has "wrongly" become synonymous with vipassana' certainly is not true in the States.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

Cittasanto wrote:, yet there is no demonstration of them being synonymous.
1)"By the fourth day the mind is calmer and more focused, better able to undertake the practice of Vipassana itself: observing sensations throughout the body, understanding their nature, and developing equanimity by learning not to react to them."
From http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2)To quote tiltbillings "So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice" from this I infer that he believes it is (synonymous).
Cittasanto wrote: you have repeatedly claimed Goenka is isolationistic, yet after a page of discussing it and my explaining they are no different to anyone else,
But they are different. I don't agree with your explanation.
Cittasanto wrote: Teachers who led retreats in the Monastery I was at, always were from the circle of monasteries in some way.
But the abbot is happy to go and teach at IMS Barre. I don't imagine that he believes he is performing the "work of Mara" when he teaches there. They are also happy to have monks/teachers from outside there circle teach there.
Cittasanto wrote: in other words "don't step up to bat, then cry about having the ball thrown at you."
A rather strange an analogy in my opinion.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by badscooter »

But the abbot is happy to go and teach at IMS Barre. I don't imagine that he believes he is performing the "work of Mara" when he teaches there. They are also happy to have monks/teachers from outside there circle teach there.
I think this is Mr Man's main point (although I could be totally wrong)
Mr Man may be looking at the vipassan movement in the US being that associated with the original Insight Meditation team (as I call them) from the Insight Meditation Society:
Salzberg, Goldstein, and Kornfield being the biggest names. (others like Boorstein, Brach, and Fronsdal...etc)

I think what Mr Man is trying to say is that teachers from different practices and lineages frequently talk and give instruction at these places. I have seen Thai tradition, Bhikkhus from the Mahasi tradition, Ven Analayo, Zen practitioners, Tibetan Rinpoches, and many other lay and monastic teachers all give talks and instructions at these palces.

And I'm guessing Mr Man is saying that Mr Goenkaji does not give talks at these insight places. Which I do not think he does.


As a side note, body sweeping is practiced in other lineages (some not even Buddhist). I was first taught body sweeping from a Tibetan monk.

may all be well
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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