is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

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alan...
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by alan... »

all this talk about "body sweeping"...

am i wrong in thinking this has it's roots in the "foulness of the bodily parts" (head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones...) section of satipatthana? why all the debate?
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Cittasanto
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:1)"By the fourth day the mind is calmer and more focused, better able to undertake the practice of Vipassana itself: observing sensations throughout the body, understanding their nature, and developing equanimity by learning not to react to them."
From http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
By this logic Anapanasati is synonymous with vipassana, as is any other meditation technique taught. They use a particular techneque as a foundation to build vippassana upon, and the underlined (particularly the bold words) do not support your clam. Rather your quote fits the description (in italic) written just a moment ago in this post.
2)To quote tiltbillings "So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice" from this I infer that he believes it is (synonymous).
You understood this differently and in line with the underlined part earlier. Although you did misunderstood "And the "isolation" has been explained." for an acceptance; for some reason missing the quotation marks.

It seams you have a conclusion and are forcing things to fit so as to be evidence, rather that seeing facts and forming a hypothesis based upon them.
Cittasanto wrote: you have repeatedly claimed Goenka is isolationistic, yet after a page of discussing it and my explaining they are no different to anyone else,
But they are different. I don't agree with your explanation.
then to continue with the part you snipped out.
"your only evidence was that they don't want the technique taught in a place that is eclectic. you haven't shown they are different from other groups here."
but I will correct this
you havn't shown they are different from other groups in any way other than a not agreeing with mixing up styles. which considering the new age mix&match blunders that have happened, it is understandable.
Cittasanto wrote: Teachers who led retreats in the Monastery I was at, always were from the circle of monasteries in some way.
But the abbot is happy to go and teach at IMS Barre. I don't imagine that he believes he is performing the "work of Mara" when he teaches there. They are also happy to have monks/teachers from outside there circle teach there.
He had in the past, but that doesn't negate what I have fully expressed regarding this isolationist claim as far as you are able to show.
Cittasanto wrote: in other words "don't step up to bat, then cry about having the ball thrown at you."
A rather strange an analogy in my opinion.
as with many things you don't show why it is and snip context that helps explain it.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Cittasanto
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote:all this talk about "body sweeping"...

am i wrong in thinking this has it's roots in the "foulness of the bodily parts" (head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones...) section of satipatthana? why all the debate?
it could have its origin in a number of places from the first four parts of the anapanasati method in the satipatthana sutta, the 32 parts, the decaying body, the feelings tetrad...
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
SamKR
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by SamKR »

Mr Man wrote:
SamKR are you a Goenkaji student? Why does Goenkaji not want his students to do walking meditation? Are students discouraged from practicing techniques outside of the techniques taught by Goenka even if they are bona fide Theravada techniques??
I have done a few Goenka courses. I am not aware that Goenkaji does not want his students to do walking meditation. During the courses I heard him saying that while doing everyday activities including walking we should be aware what we are doing (walking etc.) and also observe sensations/anicca related to those activities. Thus walking meditation is included though most of the time students do meditation while sitting. Personally, I like the fact that he gives emphasis to sitting because it becomes much easier to develop the sensations-resolving-power of mind while sitting still.
In my opinion, old students are discouraged from practicing & mixing other techniques because of many reasons: Mixing the techniques may confuse the mediator or a teacher while diagnosing the stages of practice; it may sometimes even harm the student himself. Furthermore, Goenkaji gives emphasis to keep the purity of the technique for a long time to come, and so discourages to add or subtract anything from the teachings. It does not mean that other methods within Theravada are inferior.
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mikenz66
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sam,
SamKR wrote: In my opinion, old students are discouraged from practicing & mixing other techniques because of many reasons: Mixing the techniques may confuse the mediator or the teacher while diagnosing the stages of practice; it may sometimes even harm the student himself.
As I said, most other teachers do this to a certain extent. Teachers (of anything) build up a repertoire of the various things that can come up in their students, and what advice may help. It is likely to be much more difficult to figure out where someone is if they are doing a practice unfamiliar to the teacher.

:anjali:
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

Hi Billymac29, You certainly gave me a smile. Yes that was pretty much the main point.

The "side note" is also interesting.
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

SamKR wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
In my opinion, old students are discouraged from practicing & mixing other techniques because of many reasons: Mixing the techniques may confuse the mediator or a teacher while diagnosing the stages of practice; it may sometimes even harm the student himself. Furthermore, Goenkaji gives emphasis to keep the purity of the technique for a long time to come, and so discourages to add or subtract anything from the teachings.
Hi SamKR, This is a the standard view. I wonder if there is anything in the Sutta to support this (not that there has to be)?
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Cittasanto
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:I wonder if there is anything in the Sutta to support this (not that there has to be)?
The problem with answering this is that these will only deal with monastics, not lay teachers, so only infer the traditional take on this matter when it comes to lay people.

The best example I can think of is one of the Vinaya rules.
Buddhist Monastic Code 2 pp388 wrote:A bhikkhu is also forbidden from luring another bhikkhu's following away. The Commentary states that following means student novices or bhikkhus.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
SamKR
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by SamKR »

Mr Man wrote:
SamKR wrote:
In my opinion, old students are discouraged from practicing & mixing other techniques because of many reasons: Mixing the techniques may confuse the mediator or a teacher while diagnosing the stages of practice; it may sometimes even harm the student himself. Furthermore, Goenkaji gives emphasis to keep the purity of the technique for a long time to come, and so discourages to add or subtract anything from the teachings.
Hi SamKR, This is a the standard view. I wonder if there is anything in the Sutta to support this (not that there has to be)?
Well, we may not find any sutta that directly tells not to mix approaches. But, like you said, there doesn't have to be any as long as there are no suttas which say directly against it, and as long as the method is in accordance to Dhamma.
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

I would like to open my earlier question up to see if anyone else can help to clarify.

There is a quote from Sayagi U Ba Khin in Jack Kornfields book "Living Buddhist Masters - "with the awareness of the truth of anicca and or dukkha and or anatta.he develops in him what we may call the sparkling illumination of nibbana dhatu a power that dispels all impurities or poisons -the product of bad actions,which are the sources of his physical and mental ills.In the same way as fuel is burnt away by ignition,the negative forces[imputities or poisons]within are eliminated by nibbana dhatu which he generates with the true awareness of anicca in the course of meditation.the process of elimination should go until such time as both the mind and body are completely cleansed of such impurities or poisons." Jack Kornfield refers to nibbana dhatu as the "agent or mode of purification" does this all fit in with how Goenkaji teaches? Would penetrative insight a be substitute term we could use for nibbana dhatu or is nibbana dhatu something more from the perspective of your tradition? Is nibbana dhatu the same as a light nimitta.

I also believe that there is some kind of view about purity of energy within the tradition, which would explain the reluctance to share meditation facilities or to sit/practice with those from other traditions within the Theravada, is this correct? If it is so do you think it ij just a cultural thing, which has come out of Myanmar with the practice or is there more to it?
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