The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

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tiltbillings
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

Try the link now.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =106115324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
freki
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by freki »

That's disgusting. The Buddhist propaganda did really good work in presenting Buddhists as "kind and tolerant" people, because I really believed that. But just observing a few posts among you Buddhists cured me from that prejudice.

You know what this whole thread is? It translates as:
My religion is better than yours!
(But then, of course, Buddhism is not a religion, and the teachings of Buddhism are true, whereas the others are not, and ... yeah... sure...)

There are Christians out there who try to be good people. Of course there are also bad examples. With your generalizations you insult them all. Maybe I should collect examples of Buddhists who said stupid things, have a weird understanding of the teachings, raped and killed, perform hollow rituals, and by their example I can then conclude the true nature of Buddhism... Of course not! (if you know about logic: that's "proof by example" - any logic prof would slap you for this.)

If you really want to judge a religion, you have to study the original teachings. Or maybe collect statistical material that proves that really a significant number of their members (and not single examples, not matter how many!) fulfill a certain criteria... if you are really interested in studying and comparing other religions.

[Edit: in this last paragraph only my negativity spoke. please understand it as expression of my emotions, not as reasoning.]
But if you only want to feel better and need to strengthen your own faith by humbling other beliefs, then just go on rambling. I'm afraid that's what will happen, and I can't change it. Buddhism would be way better off without Buddhists. Disgusting.
Last edited by freki on Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pink_trike
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by pink_trike »

Buddhism was never intended to be a religion (tiltbillings, please feel privileged to delete this or not). Religiosity is a mental obstacle that perverts our engagement with the Dharma. Religiosity is just another mental defilement. I say this as a conservative "buddhist".
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Guy
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Guy »

Hi Freki,

In fairness, is this not a hypocritical thing to say?
freki wrote:With your generalizations you insult them all.
freki wrote:Buddhism would be way better off without Buddhists. Disgusting.
With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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tiltbillings
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:Buddhism was never intended to be a religion. Religiosity is a mental obstacle to engaging the Dharma. Religiosity is just another mental defilement.
I would not blame religion; rather, it is just people have a tendency to do. Religion can be used as an excuse for bad behaviour, but it can also inspire and motivate good behavior. Things are never black and white.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:Buddhism was never intended to be a religion. Religiosity is a mental obstacle to engaging the Dharma. Religiosity is just another mental defilement.
I would not blame religion; rather, it is just people have a tendency to do. Religion can be used as an excuse for bad behaviour, but it can also inspire and motivate good behavior. Things are never black and white.
Religion is delusion. Is this ok to say? As a non-religious Buddhist, I'd appreciate clarification.
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:02 am, edited 5 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

freki wrote:That's disgusting. ... Disgusting.
Okay, but just to let you know, Buddhists are not exempt from being stupid in the name of their religion. Anyway, as Chogyam Trungpa would say, Good luck to you, sir (or ma'am).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by pink_trike »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
Also, do you think religion is the cause of this naive blind faith? If it was, why isn't EVERYONE under its spell?
Yes.

Everyone _isn't_ under it's spell...why do you think they are?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey
That's disgusting. The Buddhist propaganda did really good work in presenting Buddhists as "kind and tolerant" people, because I really believed that. But just observing a few posts among you Buddhists cured me from that prejudice.
As Buddhists we train to be kind and tolerant but that doesnt mean we cant see and communicate flaws that we see in other religious and philosophical thought. Tolerance is tolerating something not accepting it. This is a Buddhist forum where we can discuss such things in terms of Dhamma as well as personal opinion

There are Christians out there who try to be good people.
Can you show me a post where someone said there wasnt?
Of course there are also bad examples. With your generalizations you insult them all.
Can you show me where someone has said that all xtians are the same?

Maybe I should collect examples of Buddhists who said stupid things, have a weird understanding of the teachings, raped and killed, perform hollow rituals, and by their example I can then conclude the true nature of Buddhism... Of course not! (if you know about logic: that's "proof by example" - any logic prof would slap you for this.)
You would have to compare their actions against the original teachings (if they claim to be doing it in the name of Dhamma)

If you really want to judge a religion, you have to study the original teachings
I cant speak for everyone but for me i have studied the teachings of the Bible and while there is some good there is also some things that are quite bad (old testament)


[Edit: in this last paragraph only my negativity spoke. please understand it as expression of my emotions, not as reasoning.]
But if you only want to feel better and need to strengthen your own faith by humbling other beliefs, then just go on rambling. I'm afraid that's what will happen, and I can't change it. Buddhism would be way better off without Buddhists. Disgusting.
You assume that Buddhists here have been biggots or are trying to justify their beliefs by putting down others, in fact what has happened is there has just been a discussion about religions in which people have voiced what their own opinions are about said religions and, from what i can tell, you havent liked what they have said

metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
freki
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the never ending religious debate

Post by freki »

My apologies for ramblings against Buddhists. I realize that I am disappointed by my own expectations (of Buddhism/-ts), and this disappointment got a while out of control. I say this not to justify my behaviour but to de-emotionalize.

I've been reading various threads here the days before, so my memory might deceive me with the details. This one is just the latest one I found. I'm too lazy to look up what I remember (and it might even be my interpretations), so I stay here on topic:

How can you seriously discuss the topic of "The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid"? Can't you imagine that it may be an offense to anyone who considers himself religious? If the goal of choosing this topic was to provocate, to make people angry: it's a success! (see above :tongue: )

And for the argument: Yes, there are bad examples. But you can enumerate thousands and still proof nothing. That's what I mean with "proof by example" - it's logically illegal. The only thing this shows is that there are "stupid" people, and some of those justify their doing with their believe. Nothing more. Maybe these people just misused the religion to have an excuse, maybe they misunderstood the teachings, maybe they are in an orthodox sect which does not represent any majority... and so on.

Especially this does not prove any causality, not even a connection, between level of intelligence and religion.

So what is it good for to list all those bad examples?
clw_uk wrote:Hey
Maybe I should collect examples of Buddhists who said stupid things, have a weird understanding of the teachings, raped and killed, perform hollow rituals, and by their example I can then conclude the true nature of Buddhism... Of course not! (if you know about logic: that's "proof by example" - any logic prof would slap you for this.)
You would have to compare their actions against the original teachings (if they claim to be doing it in the name of Dhamma)
So if I go and do something "stupid", like having many babies(!), and honestly believe (or just claim) that it was in the name of the Dhamma, what exactly would that prove?

there has just been a discussion about religions in which people have voiced what their own opinions are about said religions and, from what i can tell, you havent liked what they have said
Is it clearer now what it is I didn't like?

cheerio, ("metta")
freki
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings
My apologies for ramblings against Buddhists. I realize that I am disappointed by my own expectations (of Buddhism/-ts), and this disappointment got a while out of control. I say this not to justify my behaviour but to de-emotionalize.
May I ask out of interest what expectations have been let down?

How can you seriously discuss the topic of "The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid"? Can't you imagine that it may be an offense to anyone who considers himself religious? If the goal of choosing this topic was to provocate, to make people angry: it's a success! (see above )
While the title of the thread isnt perhaps the best the content of the thread is about how when certain religious dogma is taken to an extreme literal interpretation and the effect that has on a persons rationality (thats my take of the thread anyway)
And for the argument: Yes, there are bad examples. But you can enumerate thousands and still proof nothing. That's what I mean with "proof by example" - it's logically illegal. The only thing this shows is that there are "stupid" people, and some of those justify their doing with their believe. Nothing more. Maybe these people just misused the religion to have an excuse, maybe they misunderstood the teachings, maybe they are in an orthodox sect which does not represent any majority... and so on.
This is from my own personal opinion but i agree that religion doesnt make someone "stupid" but impacts on rational thinking. I cant speak for the OP but i think that is what is meant and not the idea that religion is for the uneducated. Hence by saying "The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid" it means, from what i understand from the discussion, "The never-ending capacity of religion making people irrational"
Especially this does not prove any causality, not even a connection, between level of intelligence and religion.
Of course not, many intelligent people have been religious


So if I go and do something "stupid", like having many babies(!), and honestly believe (or just claim) that it was in the name of the Dhamma, what exactly would that prove?
That you didnt understand Dhamma since it doesnt teach that, the point i was trying to make is that if one states that religion is having a negative effect on a person then one has to look at the destructive views said person is holding in comparrison with the text. If its found that their irrational and destructive belief is backed by the text then one can make a stronger case for the religion being the negative influence on the person instead of visa/versa

Is it clearer now what it is I didn't like?
Indeed, my understanding is that you take issue with the claim that religion makes people stupid or is for stupid people. I agree with you here however as i said the word "stupid" as used in this thread wasnt intended to mean of low intelligence but an absence of rational thinking and fundementalist dogmatic thought

Metta :smile:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
freki
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by freki »

clw_uk wrote: May I ask out of interest what expectations have been let down?
Long story, maybe the short version is understandable: It was three expectations:
• Buddhists are noticeably bettered by meditation, regarding to tolerance and kindness
• humans can have fair and respectful arguments about metaphysical topics
• this forum's different
How can you seriously discuss the topic of "The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid"? Can't you imagine that it may be an offense to anyone who considers himself religious? If the goal of choosing this topic was to provocate, to make people angry: it's a success! (see above )
While the title of the thread isnt perhaps the best the content of the thread is about how when certain religious dogma is taken to an extreme literal interpretation and the effect that has on a persons rationality (thats my take of the thread anyway)
"isn't perhaps the best"? Is this euphemism or an answer to my question ("Can you imagine if it is offensive...") with a "no, not really". :(
So if I go and do something "stupid", like having many babies(!), and honestly believe (or just claim) that it was in the name of the Dhamma, what exactly would that prove?
That you didnt understand Dhamma since it doesnt teach that, the point i was trying to make is that if one states that religion is having a negative effect on a person then one has to look at the destructive views said person is holding in comparrison with the text. If its found that their irrational and destructive belief is backed by the text then one can make a stronger case for the religion being the negative influence on the person instead of visa/versa
No, it doesn't. It tells you nothing about the influence of religion on that person. A religion may influence a person in three ways:
• negative: make a person more irrational and irresponsible. Or it may be
• neutral: no change - the person may be equally irrational, maybe then using another belief system to justify his behaviour.
• positive: a person can be stabilised by and find happiness in the religion. The idea is that an unstable and unhappy person acts more irrational and destructive.

None of these possibilities can be backed up by examples. Do you understand "proof by example" and why it is a fallacy? This explanation is not the best but better than nothing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And besides, if (in the above example) my understanding of the Dhamma is wrong... Who can judge what's right understanding? Maybe your interpretation is wrong. Even worse: deciding the "right interpretation" of another religion where you have only superficial knowledge of the scriptures?
Indeed, my understanding is that you take issue with the claim that religion makes people stupid or is for stupid people. I agree with you here however as i said the word "stupid" as used in this thread wasnt intended to mean of low intelligence but an absence of rational thinking and fundementalist dogmatic thought
The topic itself is stupid enough :tongue: But other definitions of "stupid" don't really make a difference. Neither it sounds less offensive, nor makes it the thesis and argument better.

cheerio,
freki
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tiltbillings
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

None of these possibilities can be backed up by examples. Do you understand "proof by example" and why it is a fallacy? This explanation is not the best but better than nothing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sure, unless the people in question themselves are claiming religious motivation, and who are we doubt that?

As for the topic being stupid, possibly, but then your above arguments apply.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
freki
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by freki »

tiltbillings wrote:
None of these possibilities can be backed up by examples. Do you understand "proof by example" and why it is a fallacy? This explanation is not the best but better than nothing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sure, unless the people in question themselves are claiming religious motivation, and who are we doubt that?
Is this a joke? I get the feeling that you just want to be provocative.
As for the topic being stupid, possibly, but then your above arguments apply.
Which?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

Is your msg a joke, or are you just trying to be hypercritical?

As to which, you are a smart person; you can figure it out.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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