Open mindedness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

mirco wrote:Why do many people regard critical thinking skills this much important.

Buddhism is about meditation training. Anything in Buddhism is about having best progress in meditation training, since He was a meditation teacher. And in Buddhist meditation training thinking is dropped very early, that is from second jhana on.

Why overestimating critical thinking? Might it be, that there is a slight;) clinging to views, ideas and thinking?
Maybe people like to identify with their thinking which in fact already is clinging?
What about trying what the Tathāgata proposed and if it doesn't work get back to thinking oneself into Nibbana ;-)

Regards :-)
are you sure this is all the path or is there also Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, right livelihood...
Critical thinking is an important skill in making appropriate decisions in day to day life and in community settings, and even in asking or responding in the appropriate manner.
The famous story of the monks who killed themselves while the Buddha was on self retreat is a fine example of the Buddha having to tell people the difference between apporopriate and inappropriate responces, in this case if they reflected appropriately on the situation and the practice they could of realised death was not the favourable option.
Wise reflection on the four requisites is also an exercise and example of critical thinking, as is Vipassana. FWIW.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by mirco »

Cittasanto wrote:are you sure this is all the path or is there also Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, right livelihood... Critical thinking is an important skill in making appropriate decisions in day to day life and in community settings, and even in asking or responding in the appropriate manner. The famous story of the monks who killed themselves while the Buddha was on self retreat is a fine example of the Buddha having to tell people the difference between apporopriate and inappropriate responces, in this case if they reflected appropriately on the situation and the practice they could of realised death was not the favourable option. Wise reflection on the four requisites is also an exercise and example of critical thinking, as is Vipassana. FWIW.
I'm cool with that. See, what one does influences how bad the mental hindrances are present.

So, i.e. Right speech, Right action and Right Livelihood are to build a ground, where less hindrances can grow. This leads to better progress in meditation.

As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.

Regards :-)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

mirco wrote: I'm cool with that. See, what one does influences how bad the mental hindrances are present.

So, i.e. Right speech, Right action and Right Livelihood are to build a ground, where less hindrances can grow. This leads to better progress in meditation.

As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.

Regards :-)
what do you mean with the underlined part?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Sambojjhanga
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Sambojjhanga »

Cittasanto wrote:.

But my signature is always worth remembering.
Are you referring to: "This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!"?

It's obvious as to what may be "right" or "wrong". Can you give an example of something you might "offer" that would fit in to the "both" or "neither" category?

Thank you for clarifying.

Metta

:anjali:
Sabba rasam dhammaraso jinati
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

Sambojjhanga wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:.

But my signature is always worth remembering.
Are you referring to: "This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!"?

It's obvious as to what may be "right" or "wrong". Can you give an example of something you might "offer" that would fit in to the "both" or "neither" category?

Thank you for clarifying.

Metta

:anjali:
No, the quote from the sutta on effacement
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
but that is a rendering of the tetralema logic. something that is both could be something that is true yet there are factual errors, although I can not think of what neither could be off hand.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Sambojjhanga
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Sambojjhanga »

Cittasanto wrote:
Sambojjhanga wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:.

But my signature is always worth remembering.
Are you referring to: "This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!"?

It's obvious as to what may be "right" or "wrong". Can you give an example of something you might "offer" that would fit in to the "both" or "neither" category?

Thank you for clarifying.

Metta

:anjali:
No, the quote from the sutta on effacement
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

Cittasanto wrote: but that is a rendering of the tetralema logic. something that is both could be something that is true yet there are factual errors, although I can not think of what neither could be off hand.
Thanks for clarifying. I'm glad I asked as I had misconstrued what it was you were trying to say.


OK, I sensed something going on in there besides what was obvious at first glance. I cannot speak for you, of course, but perhaps the reason that I can't give the other examples is because I don't have the "dhamma eye", yet that the Buddha and many of his disciples had.

Just my thoughts, of course. Your signature is being borrowed for this post ;)

Much Metta

:anjali:
Sabba rasam dhammaraso jinati
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

Sambojjhanga wrote: OK, I sensed something going on in there besides what was obvious at first glance. I cannot speak for you, of course, but perhaps the reason that I can't give the other examples is because I don't have the "dhamma eye", yet that the Buddha and many of his disciples had.
out of curiosity what did you think was going on, and what was obvious?
PM me the response if you prefer.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
danieLion
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by danieLion »

mirco wrote:
danieLion wrote:Have you tried facing, challenging or otherwise exploring them?
Yeah, I am working on personality change since ten years.
Maybe it'd work better if you focused on trying to change your behaviors instead of your "personality" (whatever that is)?
danieLion
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by danieLion »

mirco wrote:Why do many people regard critical thinking skills this much important.

Buddhism is about meditation training.
Not really. It's about training the mind and meditation is just one recommendation to do that.
mirco wrote:Anything in Buddhism...
Anything? That's the cognitve distortion of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking (an opposite of critical thinking).
mirco wrote:...is about having best progress in meditation training, since He was a meditation teacher.
You can't measure what's "best" without critical thinking. The Buddha taught a lot more than just sitting
mirco wrote:And in Buddhist meditation training thinking is dropped very early, that is from second jhana on.
And when he (and we) exit jhana, we stop thinking critically? Jhana, IF one uses it wisely (for vipassana), makes one a better critical thinker.
mirco wrote:Why overestimating critical thinking? Might it be, that there is a slight;) clinging to views, ideas and thinking?
Maybe people like to identify with their thinking which in fact already is clinging?
No. Clinging to views and critical thinking are opposites. Critical thinking is an antidote to clinging.
mirco wrote:What about trying what the Tathāgata proposed and if it doesn't work get back to thinking oneself into Nibbana
Read Reverend Thanissaro's Skill In Questions (it's free; just Google it) and then tell me the Buddha didn't teach critical thinking and that he was JUST a mediation teacher.

P.S. Have you studied the Atthakavagga?
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by mirco »

danieLion wrote:Maybe it'd work better if you focused on trying to change your behaviors instead of your "personality" (whatever that is)?
Words, words, words. Of course, all I can change is behaviour and all I am is a bunch of habitual tendecies. Maybe you should abstain from advice giving.

Regards :-|
Last edited by mirco on Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by mirco »

Cittasanto wrote:
mirco wrote:As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.
what do you mean with the underlined part?
When you give freely and are generous, it opens your heart. When you keep Sila in calms your heart.
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Sambojjhanga »

Cittasanto wrote:
Sambojjhanga wrote: OK, I sensed something going on in there besides what was obvious at first glance. I cannot speak for you, of course, but perhaps the reason that I can't give the other examples is because I don't have the "dhamma eye", yet that the Buddha and many of his disciples had.
out of curiosity what did you think was going on, and what was obvious?
PM me the response if you prefer.
What I meant by this, is that I recognized that tetralema logic, but did not know it by that name.
Sabba rasam dhammaraso jinati
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by mirco »

danieLion wrote:That's the cognitve distortion of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking (an opposite of critical thinking).
Your point of view.
danieLion wrote:[Buddhism is] about training the mind and meditation is just one recommendation to do that. ... The Buddha taught a lot more than just sitting
Meditation is a lot more than just sitting.
danieLion wrote:No. Clinging to views and critical thinking are opposites. Critical thinking is an antidote to clinging.
So, then why (or better: how) do you pick up a thought and why do you start to think critical over something?

Regards :-)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

mirco wrote:
danieLion wrote:[Buddhism is] about training the mind and meditation is just one recommendation to do that. ... The Buddha taught a lot more than just sitting
Meditation is a lot more than just sitting.
DanieLion, Micro.
Out of curiosity what term are each of you using meditation to represent?
There is a potentiality for miscommunication here, and if you are applying different meanings based on different rendering of two different words then it would be better to clear that up early on so both are on the same page. than circular conversation using different meanings for the same word/s


the two words are
bhàvanà - cultivation, development = which I believe Danial is using.
and
jhàyanta - related to Jhana and meaning contemplation, meditation = which I believe Micro is using
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

mirco wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
mirco wrote:As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.
what do you mean with the underlined part?
When you give freely and are generous, it opens your heart. When you keep Sila in calms your heart.
Ok. So to go back to the post this line is from
mirco wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:are you sure this is all the path or is there also Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, right livelihood... Critical thinking is an important skill in making appropriate decisions in day to day life and in community settings, and even in asking or responding in the appropriate manner. The famous story of the monks who killed themselves while the Buddha was on self retreat is a fine example of the Buddha having to tell people the difference between apporopriate and inappropriate responces, in this case if they reflected appropriately on the situation and the practice they could of realised death was not the favourable option. Wise reflection on the four requisites is also an exercise and example of critical thinking, as is Vipassana. FWIW.
I'm cool with that. See, what one does influences how bad the mental hindrances are present.
sure, but it is also what and how one thinks, there is sense restraint (which includes restraint regarding thoughts)
to Quote the Buddha's teaching on how to think your own thoughts
MN20 by Soma Thera wrote:If the evil unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu, who in order to get rid of an adventitious object reflects on a different object which is connected with skill, he should ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)....
...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think.
So, i.e. Right speech, Right action and Right Livelihood are to build a ground, where less hindrances can grow. This leads to better progress in meditation.

As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.

Regards :-)
There are Eight Path factors and you seam to only deal with six.
It is well worth remembering that the path progresses both systematically, as in the Great Forty (do note which is the forerunner), and each in line with the others. As I understand it one's right view is only as correct as you can see reality, yet without right view you can not make any progress in meditation in the right direction, or correct deviations in the path. there needs to be a critical analysis of what is seen and comparison with the aim to gauge what needs work is essential. as is being able to tell the difference between reality and our own thinking perversions.

However, your response to my last post will clear more up about your meaning. although if you are meaning what I believe you are do not forget that there is a cultivation, and the Buddhas own practice was hevily influenced in the right view about what Jhana was and was not.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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