Open mindedness

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Postby mirco » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:55 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
mirco wrote:As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.

what do you mean with the underlined part?

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Sambojjhanga
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Re: Open mindedness

Postby Sambojjhanga » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:58 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Sambojjhanga wrote:OK, I sensed something going on in there besides what was obvious at first glance. I cannot speak for you, of course, but perhaps the reason that I can't give the other examples is because I don't have the "dhamma eye", yet that the Buddha and many of his disciples had.

out of curiosity what did you think was going on, and what was obvious?
PM me the response if you prefer.


What I meant by this, is that I recognized that tetralema logic, but did not know it by that name.
Sabba rasam dhammaraso jinati
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors

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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Postby mirco » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:15 pm

danieLion wrote:That's the cognitve distortion of All-Or-Nothing-Thinking (an opposite of critical thinking).

Your point of view.

danieLion wrote:[Buddhism is] about training the mind and meditation is just one recommendation to do that. ... The Buddha taught a lot more than just sitting

Meditation is a lot more than just sitting.

danieLion wrote:No. Clinging to views and critical thinking are opposites. Critical thinking is an antidote to clinging.

So, then why (or better: how) do you pick up a thought and why do you start to think critical over something?

Regards :-)
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Re: Open mindedness

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:45 pm

mirco wrote:
danieLion wrote:[Buddhism is] about training the mind and meditation is just one recommendation to do that. ... The Buddha taught a lot more than just sitting

Meditation is a lot more than just sitting.

DanieLion, Micro.
Out of curiosity what term are each of you using meditation to represent?
There is a potentiality for miscommunication here, and if you are applying different meanings based on different rendering of two different words then it would be better to clear that up early on so both are on the same page. than circular conversation using different meanings for the same word/s


the two words are
bhàvanà - cultivation, development = which I believe Danial is using.
and
jhàyanta - related to Jhana and meaning contemplation, meditation = which I believe Micro is using
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Open mindedness

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:34 pm

mirco wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
mirco wrote:As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.

what do you mean with the underlined part?

When you give freely and are generous, it opens your heart. When you keep Sila in calms your heart.

Ok. So to go back to the post this line is from

mirco wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:are you sure this is all the path or is there also Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, right livelihood... Critical thinking is an important skill in making appropriate decisions in day to day life and in community settings, and even in asking or responding in the appropriate manner. The famous story of the monks who killed themselves while the Buddha was on self retreat is a fine example of the Buddha having to tell people the difference between apporopriate and inappropriate responces, in this case if they reflected appropriately on the situation and the practice they could of realised death was not the favourable option. Wise reflection on the four requisites is also an exercise and example of critical thinking, as is Vipassana. FWIW.

I'm cool with that. See, what one does influences how bad the mental hindrances are present.

sure, but it is also what and how one thinks, there is sense restraint (which includes restraint regarding thoughts)
to Quote the Buddha's teaching on how to think your own thoughts
MN20 by Soma Thera wrote:If the evil unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu, who in order to get rid of an adventitious object reflects on a different object which is connected with skill, he should ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)....
...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think.


So, i.e. Right speech, Right action and Right Livelihood are to build a ground, where less hindrances can grow. This leads to better progress in meditation.

As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.

Regards :-)

There are Eight Path factors and you seam to only deal with six.
It is well worth remembering that the path progresses both systematically, as in the Great Forty (do note which is the forerunner), and each in line with the others. As I understand it one's right view is only as correct as you can see reality, yet without right view you can not make any progress in meditation in the right direction, or correct deviations in the path. there needs to be a critical analysis of what is seen and comparison with the aim to gauge what needs work is essential. as is being able to tell the difference between reality and our own thinking perversions.

However, your response to my last post will clear more up about your meaning. although if you are meaning what I believe you are do not forget that there is a cultivation, and the Buddhas own practice was hevily influenced in the right view about what Jhana was and was not.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Open mindedness

Postby mirco » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:54 pm

Cittasanto wrote:DanieLion, Micro.
Out of curiosity what term are each of you using meditation to represent? There is a potentiality for miscommunication here, and if you are applying different meanings based on different rendering of two different words then it would be better to clear that up early on so both are on the same page. than circular conversation using different meanings for the same word/s. The two words are bhàvanà - cultivation, development = which I believe Danial is using.
jhàyanta - related to Jhana and meaning contemplation, meditation = which I believe Micro is using

No, that's not what I mean. I didn't even know of jhāyanta(contemplation) before this.

I can try to explain, what I am talking of.

If it's gonna happen, Nibbana itself timely will occure after returning from nirodha samāpatti. Into that state one drops only from nevasaññā-nasaññayatana. Mastering the jhanas is preceded and accompanied by stable virtue and generosity. It's a step-by-step programm, where each step leads to a more pure state of being. This is why I say, all all the Buddhist system is meditation, because all the elements are just parts of that big program. Take one thing away and it won't work anymore.

Regards :-)
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Postby mirco » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:08 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
mirco wrote:what one does influences how bad the mental hindrances are present.
sure, but it is also what and how one thinks, there is sense restraint (which includes restraint regarding thoughts)

I should have been more explanatory. "Doing" of course includes "mental deeds" which is thinking and everything to be "done" with and in mind. {three kinds of action: mentally, verbally and physically}
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Re: Open mindedness

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:31 am

mirco wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:DanieLion, Micro.
Out of curiosity what term are each of you using meditation to represent? There is a potentiality for miscommunication here, and if you are applying different meanings based on different rendering of two different words then it would be better to clear that up early on so both are on the same page. than circular conversation using different meanings for the same word/s. The two words are bhàvanà - cultivation, development = which I believe Danial is using.
jhàyanta - related to Jhana and meaning contemplation, meditation = which I believe Micro is using

No, that's not what I mean. I didn't even know of jhāyanta(contemplation) before this.

I can try to explain, what I am talking of.

If it's gonna happen, Nibbana itself timely will occure after returning from nirodha samāpatti. Into that state one drops only from nevasaññā-nasaññayatana. Mastering the jhanas is preceded and accompanied by stable virtue and generosity. It's a step-by-step programm, where each step leads to a more pure state of being. This is why I say, all all the Buddhist system is meditation, because all the elements are just parts of that big program. Take one thing away and it won't work anymore.

Regards :-)

please see the underlined part. you have done no more than confirm.
to explain it better here is a pdf of Ajahn Thanissaro's called go do Jhana
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Postby mirco » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:14 am

Cittasanto wrote:please see the underlined part. you have done no more than confirm.

"Contemplation" was missleading for me. I tend to forget that contemplation isn't "thinking" but "observing".

Regards :-)

P.S.: Nice exposition by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Go, do Jhana). Worth another thread ;-)
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Re: Open mindedness

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:24 am

mirco wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:please see the underlined part. you have done no more than confirm.

"Contemplation" was missleading for me. I tend to forget that contemplation isn't "thinking" but "observing".

Regards :-)

P.S.: Nice exposition by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Go, do Jhana). Worth another thread ;-)

I believe it has its own.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."


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