Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Kim OHara
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by Kim OHara »

gavesako wrote:Another nice summary:

A Tale of Three Buddhist Modernisms
http://drwillajahn.blogspot.com/2011/10 ... rnism.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks, gavesako,
Some food for thought there. Here's some (if only a snack :tongue: ) in return.

In defence of "Modern Buddhism" (if it needs defending, which I'm not too sure about), how else could anyone have introduced Buddhism to the west except in a stripped-down form? There is no way that any single teacher in any western country could have gotten ten or twenty curious but dubious westerners to adopt the whole-of-culture Thai, Chinese or Japanese Buddhism, because the students would have had to adopt the whole culture - while still living in their own. It doesn't work - ask any immigrant.
So what does the teacher do? Teaches what is (or what he sees as) central and authoritative, and as much of the rest as the students can easily assimilate.
If we could go back 1400 years or so and watch the first Buddhist teachers in China, I think we would see just the same.
I was going to suggest that the Christian missionaries in the Pacific Islands in the 19th century would have done the same but it's not quite true - but the only reason it's not true is that they were in a position of economic/military power.

:namaste:
Kim
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mikenz66
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by mikenz66 »

I came across the "meanginess" blog again, today, thanks to this post: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12903" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Problems with scripture
http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... scripture/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  • Traditional Buddhism: Scripture is mostly ignored; the monastic sangha has ultimate spiritual authority
  • Protestant Buddhism: Scripture is the ultimate authority
  • Politically-correct Buddhism: Scripture is mostly ignored; each individual has ultimate spiritual authority
Bad ideas from dead Germans
http://meaningness.com/metablog/bad-ide ... ad-germans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Outside of traditional Christianity, most of what counts as religion and “spirituality” in America nowadays is actually recycled German academic philosophy from two hundred years ago. This might sound absurd, or irrelevant. In this metablog series, I hope to show that it is true, and that it matters.
:anjali:
Mike
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gavesako
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by gavesako »

Interesting article:

The History and Complexity of Buddhism in Asia

http://crcs.ugm.ac.id/interview/31/The- ... -Asia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Buddhism is merely a minor belief system, a Buddhist is just the same as a Pacifist, and Buddhists are peaceful people..." that is what people in Indonesia or some other countries, where Buddhists are considered a minor community, say about Buddhism. But, what would happen when Buddhists are the major society in a country as in Sri Lanka and Thailand? How do they deal with one another? How do they manage conflict amongst them? How do they deal with diversity?

This would be more interesting if we extend the questions to a conversation about the internal issues of Buddhist communities nowadays. For instance, how are Buddhist knowledge and customs transferred from one nation to another, like the case of Buddhist education and ordination for monks and nuns? Are there any problems on power and gender relation in this regard? And, why do Buddhists consider the concept of "Early Buddhism" and "Engaged Buddhism" as alternative solutions in their everyday life in facing contemporary world and its complexity?

Those questions have been answered by A/P Anne M. Blackburn, an expert on the history of Buddhism in Asia, in an interview by Jimmy Marcos Immanuel. They talked about Blackburn's framework in her research on Buddhism in Asia. They also talked about Buddhism in the colonial and post-colonial periods, some issues of Buddhism in diversity, Buddhists' knowledge transfer, and gender and power relations in Buddhism. It ended with a conversation about the concept of "early Buddhism" and "engaged Buddhism." Below is the interview between Jimmy (CRCS) and Blackburn (AMB).
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by m0rl0ck »

gavesako wrote:This is a related article:

Bourgeois Buddhists: Do Americans Miss the Point of Buddhism?
Owen Flanagan, Ph.D.

This question arises in a serious way for American Buddhists. What kind of Buddhists are American Buddhists? ... Most Americans who say that they are Buddhist mean they meditate, possibly regularly. The code for this is to say that one "practices." If you ask why a person who "practices" practices, typical answers involve vague new-agey and self-satisfied slogans about "centering," "mind clearing," serenity -- possibly, if they are really bullshiting that they are "getting in touch with their Buddha nature." If you ask what kind of meditation they do, most only know about mindfulness meditation, which unlike lovingkindness meditation, is almost entirely self-centered. ... Americans love happiness. We have a right to pursue it. If a spiritual tradition offers happiness, we are all over it. But really, how important is happiness? ... One wonders whether American Buddhists, especially those who think that Buddhism is largely about meditation, and the personal psychological goods, the self-satisfaction on offer from sitting in, what has become, a laughably bourgeois pose, aren't missing something essential about Buddhism, about what Buddhist philosophy is mainly and mostly about, namely, wisdom and goodness.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/owen-flan ... 64188.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You know when i read this i had just finished "practicing" and was feeling somewhat tranquil and, dare i say it, happy :jumping:
I have no idea what sort of stick this guy has up his butt on the subject of happiness, but the fact of the matter is that happy people are much more likely to be kind people and much less likely to break the precepts.

Edit: Reading this article a second and third time im struck at the differences between what he says and my own experience. Most of the american buddhists i have met on the internet, at the local zendo and at the local bca franchise, seemed to be quite aware of buddhisms teachings of anatta and compassion. He just seems like a sourpuss to me. Maybe he should practice more :)
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by m0rl0ck »

gavesako wrote:Some interesting ideas about recent historical developments on this blog:

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... -buddhism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some of this is just obviously wrong, at least for traditional chan/ zen buddhism, he should at least make the distinction what kind of buddhism he is talking about. Given that the guy doesnt seem to know what he is talking about, i dont think i need to read that blog any more.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
nibbuti
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by nibbuti »

gavesako wrote:Some interesting ideas about recent historical developments on this blog:

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... -buddhism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... modernism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... -religion/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... -buddhism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... al-weapon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... e-duopoly/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... diversity/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... editation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... scripture/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you actually use the doctrines you are propagating as a basis for your practise?

:?:
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Aloka
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by Aloka »

Hi gavesako,

I've only just noticed this thread - and I think that the Vajrayana group Aro gTer which the guy who wrote the blog in your first post belongs to, used to be on a cult list .
I am an “apprentice” in the Aro lineage. Aro is a lineage within the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism

http://approachingaro.org/
Kind regards,

Aloka
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gavesako
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by gavesako »

I don't know anything about the author of the Meaningness blog and I don't think that it's his original thought either: he merely compiled some references from books recently published on this subject, in particular "Buddhist Modernism" which has been dealt with extensively by other scholars as well. Whatever conclusions he personally draws from it (the need for more tantric Buddhism in the West) is his business, not something I would endorse.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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gendun
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by gendun »

Aloka wrote:Hi gavesako,

I've only just noticed this thread - and I think that the Vajrayana group Aro gTer which the guy who wrote the blog in your first post belongs to, used to be on a cult list .
I am an “apprentice” in the Aro lineage. Aro is a lineage within the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism

http://approachingaro.org/
Kind regards,

Aloka
Just noticed this and thought it worth going off topic to point out that the key words here are " used to be". The Aro were declared a cult by a group within the old E Sangha site.
Their authenticity is now accepted pretty much universally, including by Malcolm ( formerly Namdrol ).
I apologise for the detour.

:anjali:
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
plwk
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by plwk »

Just noticed this and thought it worth going off topic to point out that the key words here are " used to be". The Aro were declared a cult by a group within the old E Sangha site.
Their authenticity is now accepted pretty much universally, including by Malcolm ( formerly Namdrol ).
I apologise for the detour.

:anjali:
And the evidence for your claim on this is? Perhaps you would like to expand on this at the sister site as this site is dedicated to Theravada based teaching and issues.
Last edited by plwk on Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aloka
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by Aloka »

gendun wrote:
Aloka wrote:Hi gavesako,

I've only just noticed this thread - and I think that the Vajrayana group Aro gTer which the guy who wrote the blog in your first post belongs to, used to be on a cult list .
I am an “apprentice” in the Aro lineage. Aro is a lineage within the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism

http://approachingaro.org/
Kind regards,

Aloka
Just noticed this and thought it worth going off topic to point out that the key words here are " used to be". The Aro were declared a cult by a group within the old E Sangha site.
Their authenticity is now accepted pretty much universally, including by Malcolm ( formerly Namdrol ).
I apologise for the detour.

:anjali:

I saw Aro Ter listed as a cult group somewhere other than E-sangha.

I wasn't very familiar with E-sangha when it was on the internet....nor with "Malcolm/Namdrol" who appears to be regarded as the supreme expert on all things Buddhist. :shrug:

Anyway.. :focus:


.
gendun
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by gendun »

Due to the nature of the internet once a person or group has been blacklisted that list tends to get picked up and repeated widely as "received knowledge".
In the case of the Aro a number of senior Tibetan teachers ( this is easily verified ) came forward to endorse the validity of the Aro..whereupon a number of previous opponents ( including " Namdrol " ) made public apologies.

Btw Malcolm ( Namdrol ) no longer identifies himself as a Buddhist.

We are now way off topic.

:focus:
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
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Aloka
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by Aloka »

gendun wrote:Btw Malcolm ( Namdrol ) no longer identifies himself as a Buddhist.
Yet after leaving Dharma Wheel I notice he is a key figure at the new Vajracakra forum for Tibetan Buddhism.

http://www.vajracakra.com/index.php


:)
gendun
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by gendun »

Vajracakra was set up by Malcolm and a group of students of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu including Dechen Norbu who broke away from Dharma Wheel over the issue of whether it was neccessary to be a Buddhist in order to practice Dzogchen.
Malcolm and others thought not, and so Vajracakra.com was born. However they opened it to Tibetan Buddhists too, in that they are not excluded.

My apologies to the forum mods. I was unsure whether to respond or not as this is all off topic.
Gendun P. Brownlow.
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Ben
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Re: Protestant Buddhism in Asia and the West

Post by Ben »

gendun wrote:Vajracakra was set up by Malcolm and a group of students of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu including Dechen Norbu who broke away from Dharma Wheel over the issue of whether it was neccessary to be a Buddhist in order to practice Dzogchen.
Malcolm and others thought not, and so Vajracakra.com was born. However they opened it to Tibetan Buddhists too, in that they are not excluded.

My apologies to the forum mods. I was unsure whether to respond or not as this is all off topic.
Thanks Gendun and no worries.
But if others wish to discuss this particular issue further, please feel free to start a new topic.
kind regards,

Ben
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