the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby gendun » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:44 pm

Aloka wrote:
gendun wrote:I have never posted on Dharma Wheel..ever.


OK - well I noticed your posts in a topic on this website in support of Aro g'Ter and mentioning Malcome have been quoted there in the 'Dharma Free For All.'

Goodnight :anjali:


Goodnight.

:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:14 am

Aloka wrote:Yes, I can understand how people need rebirth as a kind of morality system and comforter - and that's fine.


Comforter? ... Comforter? It would be much less stressful if there was only one life and we would be ipso facto Arhants in that matter.


Quite the opposite. It was the FEAR of rebirth that motivated Prince Siddhartha to seek Nibbana. Most of dukkha is not a psychological "you didn't get what you craved". The problem with craving is that it leads to more rebirth which means that one has to work, age, get sick, experience excruciating pain potentially endless amount of time until Nibbana and in some lifeforms the pain is trillions times greater than in this human life.

This time we have it lucky. We weren't born as starving kid in Africa... But with rebirth there is no guarantee unless one becomes an Aryan.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:57 am

Alex123 wrote:
Aloka wrote:Yes, I can understand how people need rebirth as a kind of morality system and comforter - and that's fine.


Comforter? ... Comforter? It would be much less stressful if there was only one life and we would be ipso facto Arhants in that matter.

Many would see the whole religious thing as a comforter


Most of dukkha is not a psychological


See here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=15688&start=0
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby gendun » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:26 am

Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:43 am

gendun wrote:Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.


The first noble truth here and now?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby gendun » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:56 am

The first noble truth in isolation is a counsel of despair.
Take all four or leave it alone.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:18 am

gendun wrote:Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.


Lol, I hope that's not a reference to me because of my remark about rebirth being a comforter for (some) people !

One could speculate endlessly about what brings other people to a Buddhist website - and perhaps for some of us its to argue and attempt to dominate others with our own views.

This is an excellent talk from Ajahn Sumedho which I went to myself :

"Who need Enlightenment when I have my opinions?"'

http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewTalk.php?id=639


:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby gendun » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:27 am

It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.
Of course there will always be those particularly if they are "born Buddhists" who will take comfort in a sentimental attachment to the more picturesque aspects of Buddhism.
But most converts will quickly move through that phase or leave.
The arrival of internet Buddhism may enable some to hang around the periphery for a long time.
But their first retreat will confront them with the reality of living the Dharma.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:38 am

gendun wrote:It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.


Which was in response to Alex123 "It would be much less stressful if there was only one life".

Suffering is here and now. We do not need a belief in rebirth to experience the first noble truth. Dukkha is egalitarian.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:29 pm

Mr Man wrote:
gendun wrote:It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.


Which was in response to Alex123 "It would be much less stressful if there was only one life".

Suffering is here and now. We do not need a belief in rebirth to experience the first noble truth. Dukkha is egalitarian.


According to orthodox teaching, this "here-and-now" will endlessly occur until parinibbana, not until first and last death (according to one-life only belief).

I notice that trying to meditate (samatha or vipassana) often adds more dukkha, not less. There are quicker ways to feel pleasure or peace than that.
Also trying to act "right" adds additional stress, and problems. What for if death is parinibbana anyways? Why complicate life even more?


If "here-and-now" will occur after the death of this body, then extra discomfort in meditation or following Dhamma to stop more dukkha after death of this body is justified. No pain, no gain.

But if parinibbana is going to occur anyways, why bother with extra stress?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Jerrod Lopes » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:38 pm

Alex123 wrote:According to orthodox teaching, this "here-and-now" will endlessly occur until parinibbana, not until first and last death (according to one-life only belief).

I notice that trying to meditate (samatha or vipassana) often adds more dukkha, not less. There are quicker ways to feel pleasure or peace than that.
Also trying to act "right" adds additional stress, and problems. What for if death is parinibbana anyways? Why complicate life even more?


If "here-and-now" will occur after the death of this body, then extra discomfort in meditation or following Dhamma to stop more dukkha after death of this body is justified. No pain, no gain.

But if parinibbana is going to occur anyways, why bother with extra stress?


Sounds very much nihilistic. If you're a nihilist, the extra 'stress' would be a waste of time. If your meditation practice is one of looking for pleasure, it's a waste of time. I would dearly love to know what ways there are to find as deep and sincere and lasting a peace as meditation offers, but at a faster rate. And what is paranibbana? What happens then? I didn't know it was possible to know what paranibbana is.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:44 pm

Jerrod Lopes wrote:If your meditation practice is one of looking for pleasure, it's a waste of time.


Exactly. I've read too much Ajahn Brahm. As for peace, if one sleeps an extra hour - it is an extra hour of peace (as absence of perceived dukkha).


One is better developing insight. But for what purpose if there was only one life?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:46 pm

Alex123 wrote: But for what purpose if there was only one life?


The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:42 pm

daverupa wrote:
Alex123 wrote: But for what purpose if there was only one life?


The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.


Which ones are those?

Not everybody is as gifted in meditation as Ajahn Brahm.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:13 pm

Alex123 wrote:
daverupa wrote:
Alex123 wrote: But for what purpose if there was only one life?


The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.


Which ones are those?

Not everybody is as gifted in meditation as Ajahn Brahm.


Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit. I only meditate in certain ways, and the benefits accrue accordingly. So far as I am able to conform to a critical practice of what is found in the Nikayas, I find that the Nikayas correctly predict the results, and this is very encouraging.

I think people mostly try to stitch the Dhamma into their life, which is bound to give piecemeal results. But the Dhamma isn't this sort of head-game, neh? It is opanayiko.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:54 pm

daverupa wrote:Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.


Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).

If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...

Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:56 pm

Alex123 wrote:
daverupa wrote:Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.


Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).

If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...

Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?


There is no samatha vs. vipassanā in the Nikāyas, as these are factors of a complete dynamic.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:08 pm

Alex123 wrote:Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships.


How so?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:33 am

Greetings,

ancientbuddhism wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
daverupa wrote:Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.


Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).

If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...

Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?


There is no samatha vs. vipassanā in the Nikāyas, as these are factors of a complete dynamic.

Yep, I'd suggest it's more a case of the satta bojjhangha (Seven Factors of Enlightenment) than it is samatha vs vipassana...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojjhanga

Note that all seven are pleasant, wholesome things, so if a particular practice is inflicting dukkha, then perhaps the efficacy and suitability of that practice should be re-assessed?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:06 am

daverupa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships.

How so?


Sometimes strictly keeping the precepts invites more hardship and complications. Also trying to meditate and be like on thinks one should ideally be often brings MORE mental stress than not doing it.

Monks live, or are supposed to live in poverty. Why get rid of one's wealth and comforts for austere life?

If one becomes a doormat, then other people can step on one.
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