Patriotism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Jechbi
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Jechbi »

retrofuturist wrote:... but I think that as Buddhists we should be able to see past this, knowing that it is actually a form of wrong view as pointed out previously.
What we think we should be able to do and what actually arises from this not-self mind can be two different things. That's why it's probably worth recognizing the various compenents of this mental fabricatication we label "patriotism" and try to understand which of them are kusala and which are akusala.

And this is of course a process one applies to oneself, not to others. So if someone waves a flag and says they're patriotic, then as Buddhists we should be able to not make judgements about that other person's kamma. (Which of course doesn't mean that we won't.)
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Patriotism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:... but I think that as Buddhists we should be able to see past this, knowing that it is actually a form of wrong view as pointed out previously.
What we think we should be able to do and what actually arises from this not-self mind can be two different things.
Precisely why the Buddha taught about Right View and Right Mindfulness. Right View alone, if not backed by Right Thoughts, Right Mindfulness is not going to achieve the intended outcome.
Jechbi wrote:That's why it's probably worth recognizing the various compenents of this mental fabricatication we label "patriotism" and try to understand which of them are kusala and which are akusala.
Jechbi wrote:So if someone waves a flag and says they're patriotic, then as Buddhists we should be able to not make judgements about that other person's kamma. (Which of course doesn't mean that we won't.)
Agreed - we are not mind-readers. We do not know whether there is generosity or lovingkindness at play, or whether it's aversion or greed at play. The only thing that can be known is that it's not based in wisdom of the inherent emptiness of patriotism and symbolism... but that doesn't necessarily make it "bad". Most of what goes on in the world is conceived at a conventional level and not everything is unwholesome.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey Individual
Pride is a fetter to enlightenment -- that is, liberation from life and death, and from causality itself -- but it can also be a supporting factor for good deeds.

No one would regard self-esteem as a fetter because it is "pride"; the same goes for self-respect, dignity, honor, etc.. Instead of narrowly judging reality according to technical terms, notice: Pride can be the cause of arrogance or foolhardiness, but it can also be a support for positive things.
No one is saying that it cant lead to good but if one is practicing for nibbana then pride needs to be understood and overcome. You cant have pride and nibbana since you cant even have pride and stream-entry
Patriotism can be jingoism, a fuel for war, xenophobia, discrimination, and belligerent diplomacy, but it can also be a source of personal self-worth, confidence, and faith, which supports right living.
I would argue however that the negative effects of patriotism on a society outway the good. It can lead to good for "your own" but as you said it can lead to hatred, feelings of superiority, suspicion and war. In effect what it does is split humanity into armed encampments


As another example that comes to mind, because most of Buddhists -- let's be honest here -- are leftists, most of you would likely approve of multiculturalism.
Former member of the Communist party :lol:
But when a person is proud to be black, hispanic, or Asian, is this not simply a form of sub-nationalism? What is it about being proud of one's own country that is necessarily harmful, but pride in one's racial heritage is not?
Yes it is harmful, in terms of Dhamma but also in worldly terms as well since it leads to a feeling of "us and them" on some level and can spark racism
One can clearly see examples of racial nationalists that are harmful, like the Nazis, KKK, Nation of Islam, etc.. Even radical Muslim terrorists today are motivated by a kind of religious nationalism. But on the other hand, there are also clearly cases where nationalism has, for instance, bolstered a minority student's academic and post-academic success or encouraged charity.
The good here doesnt seem to outway the bad

Pride itself is never outright harmful unless it's coupled with something else, like hatred or fear.
Pride always leads to hatred or fear on some level since one has to always protect ones pride. If you have pride then it will come under attack sooner or later and you will feel hatred, fear or both
But pride can also be coupled with good things, like compassion and lovingkindness. Now, if a person is proud of doing good things, and this pride supports their actions, is that not a good thing?
Detachment leads to greater acts of compassion and kindness
The important thing is what it is a person's pride is based on and what it supports. A person should not be patriotic arbitrarily or ignorantly, but if a person is "proud" that their nation supports peace, freedom, and prosperity worldwide, that's a good thing.
But that can still lead to feelings of superiority etc

metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Patriotism

Post by pink_trike »

Patriotism is a figment of our egoic hunger for solidity and certainty which are both irrational, impossible concepts that we crave in our delusionary state of ignorance. We live on a tiny clump of molten rock, soil, and atmosphere whirling around a larger burning clump at 65k miles an hour, and the terrestrial clump we live on is subject to periodic, devastating, enormous change as a result of the movements of the heavens and the intensity of the burning clump. How absurd is it to think that specific areas (nations) of the the clump we live on are in someway superior to other clumps of this planet when all clumps of the planet are subject to destruction and regeneration by forces larger than our host clump? There will be another "Fall" and we'll all be primitive again...our false sense of patriotic superiority won't be worth a bent penny then. What clowns we are...
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Rhino
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Rhino »

pink_trike wrote:Patriotism is a figment of our egoic hunger for solidity and certainty which are both irrational, impossible concepts that we crave in our delusionary state of ignorance.
[...]
What clowns we are...
:goodpost:
We're all seeking for certainty and security. That's what we call 'self'. The 'self' wants to be sure,it doesn't see impermanence and it doesn't want to see it; the 'self' avoids seeing impermanence. It does everything to make the things in such a manner that it can be sure.

But I'm from germany and here is patriotism rather suspect. This is certainly against the background of the history of Germany. A patriot here is quickly stamped as a nazi. The patriotism in the USA looks strange to me and sometimes awkward. But I didn't grew up with this and in the US patriotism seems to be highly respected by the community. To me it looks like a case of conditioning.
With best wishes

Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma
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Jechbi
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Jechbi »

Pink, awesome to see you here!

(And excellent post, btw.)

I guess I see patriotism as more a matter of communing with my neighbors. I've been to enough other countries that I can see how nearly everyhwere, people (with the possible exception of some Germans) derive a certain satisfaction from acknowledging their kinship with their countrymen. So in the broad scheme of things, patriotism isn't necessarily about which country is better. It's about which country happens to be "mine" at this particular moment, and in my experience, that country is the country in which I happen to find myself. So if I'm at Naadam in Mongolia, for example, the superficial object of patriotism is Mongolia, but the underlying substance of patriotism is the same as it might be in any other place. It can be a warm, open, accepting phenomenon. At Naadam, they don't spit on foreigner; they invite them to come and enjoy. At the Fourth of July in the United States, everyone is welcome, and foreigners certainly are, too. There's no shame, no hatred in this type of patriotism. It's a celebration of our common humanity.

Yes, it's still a form of self view. Yes, we're still clowns. Then the next day comes, and we're still faced with all the same issues that we had the day before. Life goes on, but I think it's okay sometimes to recognize beauty when it is present.

Happy Fifth of July.

:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

At the Fourth of July in the United States, everyone is welcome, and foreigners certainly are, too. There's no shame, no hatred in this type of patriotism. It's a celebration of our common humanity.

Patriotism can bring out some happiness in people but it still leads to a division and can lead to narrow minded thinking



However ive never really understood Patriotism, why not just be thankful and kind to your fellow man instead of to the idea of country :shrug:


Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Jechbi
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Jechbi »

Well, even the idea of "your fellow man" can lead to "a division and can lead to narrow minded thinking," as you put it.

Sometimes it seems like we tend to take certain concepts like "religion" and "patriotism" and villify them without regard for nuance of meaning.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Well, even the idea of "your fellow man" can lead to "a division and can lead to narrow minded thinking," as you put it.

How so?



metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Jechbi
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Jechbi »

For example, if one regards "fellow man" as a point of division between oneself and others in manner that narrows perspective rather than broadens it. Use your imagination. Lots of possible hypotheticals.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jechbi wrote:For example, if one regards "fellow man" as a point of division between oneself and others in manner that narrows perspective rather than broadens it. Use your imagination. Lots of possible hypotheticals.

Only if you narrow "fellow man" down to a specific group via country, "race" or religion

If you take fellow man to mean anyone who is human then there are no divisions
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Jechbi
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Jechbi »

clw_uk wrote:If you take fellow man to mean anyone who is human then there are no divisions
Only if one regards "fellow man" in a very specific way. Otherwise, certainly the idea of "fellow man" implies a division between "self" and "other." I don't see how you can have a "fellow man" in the conventional sense without having a division between "self" and "other." And you're the one who raised the issue of sakkāya-diṭṭhi. Why wouldn't sakkāya-diṭṭhi apply to the notion of "self" as separate from "fellow man" for some people?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Patriotism

Post by DNS »

". . one who is a disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of greed, devoid of ill will, undeluded, alert, and resolute — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] — as well as the second direction, the third, and the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, and all around, everywhere and in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will."
AN 3.65
all-encompassing sometimes quoted as "unbounded" i.e. without boundaries.
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Annapurna »

genkaku wrote:Every year on patriotic holidays,
Oh, my gosh, I didn't look closely enough and read "idiotic" holidays... :rofl:

I don't even have a flag in my house....in my hometown in Southern Germany, I can see a flag only on the city hall, and the house of some right wing guy who once chased his bloodhounds into a lake where a swans couple was nesting, to get them... :pig:

A lot of little flags are attached to cars when we win in soccer.

That says about all I can add to this topic.

I find national pride odd.

Sorry. Might as well be proud you're....a man? Asian?

And in your next life you're proud of the oppposite? A woman and blond? :smile: 8-)

....it's impermanent.
Last edited by Annapurna on Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Annapurna »

Jechbi wrote:
clw_uk wrote:If you take fellow man to mean anyone who is human then there are no divisions
Only if one regards "fellow man" in a very specific way. Otherwise, certainly the idea of "fellow man" implies a division between "self" and "other." I don't see how you can have a "fellow man" in the conventional sense without having a division between "self" and "other." And you're the one who raised the issue of sakkāya-diṭṭhi. Why wouldn't sakkāya-diṭṭhi apply to the notion of "self" as separate from "fellow man" for some people?
If we construct a fellow man in our minds, we simultaneously created a non-fellowman.

Nip the buds....
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