The first noble truth in isolation is a counsel of despair.
Take all four or leave it alone.
the great rebirth debate
Re: the great rebirth debate
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
Karma Kagyu student.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Lol, I hope that's not a reference to me because of my remark about rebirth being a comforter for (some) people !gendun wrote:Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.
One could speculate endlessly about what brings other people to a Buddhist website - and perhaps for some of us its to argue and attempt to dominate others with our own views.
This is an excellent talk from Ajahn Sumedho which I went to myself :
"Who need Enlightenment when I have my opinions?"'
http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewTalk.php?id=639
Last edited by Aloka on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: the great rebirth debate
It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.
Of course there will always be those particularly if they are "born Buddhists" who will take comfort in a sentimental attachment to the more picturesque aspects of Buddhism.
But most converts will quickly move through that phase or leave.
The arrival of internet Buddhism may enable some to hang around the periphery for a long time.
But their first retreat will confront them with the reality of living the Dharma.
Of course there will always be those particularly if they are "born Buddhists" who will take comfort in a sentimental attachment to the more picturesque aspects of Buddhism.
But most converts will quickly move through that phase or leave.
The arrival of internet Buddhism may enable some to hang around the periphery for a long time.
But their first retreat will confront them with the reality of living the Dharma.
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
Karma Kagyu student.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Which was in response to Alex123 "It would be much less stressful if there was only one life".gendun wrote:It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.
Suffering is here and now. We do not need a belief in rebirth to experience the first noble truth. Dukkha is egalitarian.
Re: the great rebirth debate
According to orthodox teaching, this "here-and-now" will endlessly occur until parinibbana, not until first and last death (according to one-life only belief).Mr Man wrote:Which was in response to Alex123 "It would be much less stressful if there was only one life".gendun wrote:It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.
Suffering is here and now. We do not need a belief in rebirth to experience the first noble truth. Dukkha is egalitarian.
I notice that trying to meditate (samatha or vipassana) often adds more dukkha, not less. There are quicker ways to feel pleasure or peace than that.
Also trying to act "right" adds additional stress, and problems. What for if death is parinibbana anyways? Why complicate life even more?
If "here-and-now" will occur after the death of this body, then extra discomfort in meditation or following Dhamma to stop more dukkha after death of this body is justified. No pain, no gain.
But if parinibbana is going to occur anyways, why bother with extra stress?
- Jerrod Lopes
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:11 am
Re: the great rebirth debate
Sounds very much nihilistic. If you're a nihilist, the extra 'stress' would be a waste of time. If your meditation practice is one of looking for pleasure, it's a waste of time. I would dearly love to know what ways there are to find as deep and sincere and lasting a peace as meditation offers, but at a faster rate. And what is paranibbana? What happens then? I didn't know it was possible to know what paranibbana is.Alex123 wrote: According to orthodox teaching, this "here-and-now" will endlessly occur until parinibbana, not until first and last death (according to one-life only belief).
I notice that trying to meditate (samatha or vipassana) often adds more dukkha, not less. There are quicker ways to feel pleasure or peace than that.
Also trying to act "right" adds additional stress, and problems. What for if death is parinibbana anyways? Why complicate life even more?
If "here-and-now" will occur after the death of this body, then extra discomfort in meditation or following Dhamma to stop more dukkha after death of this body is justified. No pain, no gain.
But if parinibbana is going to occur anyways, why bother with extra stress?
Re: the great rebirth debate
Exactly. I've read too much Ajahn Brahm. As for peace, if one sleeps an extra hour - it is an extra hour of peace (as absence of perceived dukkha).Jerrod Lopes wrote:If your meditation practice is one of looking for pleasure, it's a waste of time.
One is better developing insight. But for what purpose if there was only one life?
Re: the great rebirth debate
The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.Alex123 wrote: But for what purpose if there was only one life?
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: the great rebirth debate
Which ones are those?daverupa wrote:The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.Alex123 wrote: But for what purpose if there was only one life?
Not everybody is as gifted in meditation as Ajahn Brahm.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit. I only meditate in certain ways, and the benefits accrue accordingly. So far as I am able to conform to a critical practice of what is found in the Nikayas, I find that the Nikayas correctly predict the results, and this is very encouraging.Alex123 wrote:Which ones are those?daverupa wrote:The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.Alex123 wrote: But for what purpose if there was only one life?
Not everybody is as gifted in meditation as Ajahn Brahm.
I think people mostly try to stitch the Dhamma into their life, which is bound to give piecemeal results. But the Dhamma isn't this sort of head-game, neh? It is opanayiko.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: the great rebirth debate
Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).daverupa wrote:Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.
If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...
Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?
- ancientbuddhism
- Posts: 887
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
- Location: Cyberia
Re: the great rebirth debate
There is no samatha vs. vipassanā in the Nikāyas, as these are factors of a complete dynamic.Alex123 wrote:Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).daverupa wrote:Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.
If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...
Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Re: the great rebirth debate
How so?Alex123 wrote:Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27857
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: the great rebirth debate
Greetings,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojjhanga" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that all seven are pleasant, wholesome things, so if a particular practice is inflicting dukkha, then perhaps the efficacy and suitability of that practice should be re-assessed?
Metta,
Retro.
Yep, I'd suggest it's more a case of the satta bojjhangha (Seven Factors of Enlightenment) than it is samatha vs vipassana...ancientbuddhism wrote:There is no samatha vs. vipassanā in the Nikāyas, as these are factors of a complete dynamic.Alex123 wrote:Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).daverupa wrote:Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.
If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...
Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojjhanga" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that all seven are pleasant, wholesome things, so if a particular practice is inflicting dukkha, then perhaps the efficacy and suitability of that practice should be re-assessed?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: the great rebirth debate
Sometimes strictly keeping the precepts invites more hardship and complications. Also trying to meditate and be like on thinks one should ideally be often brings MORE mental stress than not doing it.daverupa wrote:How so?Alex123 wrote:Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships.
Monks live, or are supposed to live in poverty. Why get rid of one's wealth and comforts for austere life?
If one becomes a doormat, then other people can step on one.