cbonanno wrote:Can you explain why you feel that way? It does not make sense to me since mind-body awareness happens after once perfects body awareness. The mind-body is much harder to see and mind-body awareness in the 4th jhana that the Buddha said lead him to nibbana.
Hi cbonanno. My experience is mind-body can arise without perfect body awareness, without jhana, and can leave without insights or anything worthy of mention.
It is mostly a matter of predisposition and trivial conditions like sleeplessness. I think what is more worthwhile is learning to let go of all 'mind stuff'.
Please show the sutta where Buddha said mind-body led to nibbana.
First to make clear, I did not say that mind-body lead to Nibbana, I said awareness of the mind-body led to Nibbana.
I already linked to the sutta above, the Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta: To Kevattahttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.09.0.than.html
It is not just "mind-stuff", the mind-made body is something you learn to see in the meditative practice, not to hold on to, but as something to understand and use as a stepping stone to something higher, the formless self. It is a part of the three acquisitions of self. The mind-made body is part of complete body awareness.The Buddha taught how to see how we create the mind-made body which normal people do not have the concentration to see. The mind-made body is actually overshadowed by our gross body.
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.
"This, too, is called the miracle of instruction.
The Buddha would not teach that it if was not important to the final release of Nibbana.
Also, to say that merging mind and body is "trivial" I would say there are some suttas that would disagree. Brahma lives in the mind-made realm and the Buddha used the mind-made body to visit and teach the Brahma. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/jootla/wheel414.html
And this is something the gross body cannot do:
SN 51.22 "Now, whenever the Tathagata merges his body with his mind and his mind with his body, and remains having alighted on the perception of ease and buoyancy with regard to the body, then his body rises effortlessly from the earth up into the sky. He then experiences manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.
And for more proof we have also from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html
"When he has thus gone forth, he [follows the Buddha's instructions until, after attaining the fourth jhana:] With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge & vision... to creating a mind-made body... to the modes of supranormal powers... to the divine ear-element... to knowledge of the awareness of other beings...
In short, the Buddha teaches us to see this hard to see body so we can abandon it.