the great rebirth debate

[gendun]

I have never posted on Dharma Wheel..ever.

OK - well I noticed your posts in a topic on this website in support of Aro g'Ter and mentioning Malcome have been quoted there in the 'Dharma Free For All.'

Goodnight

Goodnight.

[Alex123]

Yes, I can understand how people need rebirth as a kind of morality system and comforter - and that's fine.

Comforter? ... Comforter? It would be much less stressful if there was only one life and we would be ipso facto Arhants in that matter.


Quite the opposite. It was the FEAR of rebirth that motivated Prince Siddhartha to seek Nibbana. Most of dukkha is not a psychological "you didn't get what you craved". The problem with craving is that it leads to more rebirth which means that one has to work, age, get sick, experience excruciating pain potentially endless amount of time until Nibbana and in some lifeforms the pain is trillions times greater than in this human life.

This time we have it lucky. We weren't born as starving kid in Africa... But with rebirth there is no guarantee unless one becomes an Aryan.

[Mr Man]

Yes, I can understand how people need rebirth as a kind of morality system and comforter - and that's fine.

Comforter? ... Comforter? It would be much less stressful if there was only one life and we would be ipso facto Arhants in that matter.

Many would see the whole religious thing as a comforter

Most of dukkha is not a psychological

See here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=15688&start=0

[gendun]

Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.

[Mr Man]

Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.

The first noble truth here and now?

[gendun]

The first noble truth in isolation is a counsel of despair.
Take all four or leave it alone.

[Aloka]

Possibly so. Which begs the question what brings those people to a Buddhist website.

Lol, I hope that's not a reference to me because of my remark about rebirth being a comforter for (some) people !

One could speculate endlessly about what brings other people to a Buddhist website - and perhaps for some of us its to argue and attempt to dominate others with our own views.

This is an excellent talk from Ajahn Sumedho which I went to myself :

"Who need Enlightenment when I have my opinions?"'

http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewTalk.php?id=639

[gendun]

It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.
Of course there will always be those particularly if they are "born Buddhists" who will take comfort in a sentimental attachment to the more picturesque aspects of Buddhism.
But most converts will quickly move through that phase or leave.
The arrival of internet Buddhism may enable some to hang around the periphery for a long time.
But their first retreat will confront them with the reality of living the Dharma.

[Mr Man]

It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.

Which was in response to Alex123 "It would be much less stressful if there was only one life".

Suffering is here and now. We do not need a belief in rebirth to experience the first noble truth. Dukkha is egalitarian.

[Alex123]

It was a response to Mr Man's statement that many people see all religious activity as a comforting mechanism..which probably true. But such people will find little comfort on offer at a cheap price in Buddhism.

Which was in response to Alex123 "It would be much less stressful if there was only one life".

Suffering is here and now. We do not need a belief in rebirth to experience the first noble truth. Dukkha is egalitarian.

According to orthodox teaching, this "here-and-now" will endlessly occur until parinibbana, not until first and last death (according to one-life only belief).

I notice that trying to meditate (samatha or vipassana) often adds more dukkha, not less. There are quicker ways to feel pleasure or peace than that.
Also trying to act "right" adds additional stress, and problems. What for if death is parinibbana anyways? Why complicate life even more?


If "here-and-now" will occur after the death of this body, then extra discomfort in meditation or following Dhamma to stop more dukkha after death of this body is justified. No pain, no gain.

But if parinibbana is going to occur anyways, why bother with extra stress?

[Jerrod Lopes]

According to orthodox teaching, this "here-and-now" will endlessly occur until parinibbana, not until first and last death (according to one-life only belief).

I notice that trying to meditate (samatha or vipassana) often adds more dukkha, not less. There are quicker ways to feel pleasure or peace than that.
Also trying to act "right" adds additional stress, and problems. What for if death is parinibbana anyways? Why complicate life even more?


If "here-and-now" will occur after the death of this body, then extra discomfort in meditation or following Dhamma to stop more dukkha after death of this body is justified. No pain, no gain.

But if parinibbana is going to occur anyways, why bother with extra stress?

Sounds very much nihilistic. If you're a nihilist, the extra 'stress' would be a waste of time. If your meditation practice is one of looking for pleasure, it's a waste of time. I would dearly love to know what ways there are to find as deep and sincere and lasting a peace as meditation offers, but at a faster rate. And what is paranibbana? What happens then? I didn't know it was possible to know what paranibbana is.

[Alex123]

If your meditation practice is one of looking for pleasure, it's a waste of time.

Exactly. I've read too much Ajahn Brahm. As for peace, if one sleeps an extra hour - it is an extra hour of peace (as absence of perceived dukkha).


One is better developing insight. But for what purpose if there was only one life?

[daverupa]

But for what purpose if there was only one life?

The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.

[Alex123]

But for what purpose if there was only one life?

The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.

Which ones are those?

Not everybody is as gifted in meditation as Ajahn Brahm.

[daverupa]

But for what purpose if there was only one life?

The benefits are verifiable here and now. There's no need to wait for the next world, which is what everyone else was saying you had to do when the Buddha began teaching.

Which ones are those?

Not everybody is as gifted in meditation as Ajahn Brahm.

Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit. I only meditate in certain ways, and the benefits accrue accordingly. So far as I am able to conform to a critical practice of what is found in the Nikayas, I find that the Nikayas correctly predict the results, and this is very encouraging.

I think people mostly try to stitch the Dhamma into their life, which is bound to give piecemeal results. But the Dhamma isn't this sort of head-game, neh? It is opanayiko.

[Alex123]

Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.

Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).

If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...

Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?

[ancientbuddhism]

Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.

Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).

If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...

Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?

There is no samatha vs. vipassanā in the Nikāyas, as these are factors of a complete dynamic.

[daverupa]

Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships.

How so?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Not everyone meditates the same way, which probably matters quite a bit.

Do you mean "samatha" vs "vipassana"? I did read Ajahn Brahm quite a bit (read his three meditation books multiple times).

If only I, and many other people were as gifted as him then one could bliss out the remainder of one's days...

Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships. If there is one life, then for what?

There is no samatha vs. vipassanā in the Nikāyas, as these are factors of a complete dynamic.

Yep, I'd suggest it's more a case of the satta bojjhangha (Seven Factors of Enlightenment) than it is samatha vs vipassana...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojjhanga

Note that all seven are pleasant, wholesome things, so if a particular practice is inflicting dukkha, then perhaps the efficacy and suitability of that practice should be re-assessed?

Metta,
Retro.

[Alex123]

Unfortunately this is a cruel world and by following Dhamma one typically invites more hardships.

How so?

Sometimes strictly keeping the precepts invites more hardship and complications. Also trying to meditate and be like on thinks one should ideally be often brings MORE mental stress than not doing it.

Monks live, or are supposed to live in poverty. Why get rid of one's wealth and comforts for austere life?

If one becomes a doormat, then other people can step on one.