The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

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The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby John1122 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:53 pm

The Mind-made Body

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.

"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.

Any thoughts?
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby cooran » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:55 pm

Hello John,
Can you please give a reference and a link to the relevant Sutta?!

With metta
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby perkele » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:02 pm

Thanissaro's translation of the Samaññaphala Sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Any thoughts?


Yes. At the moment, one body is enough for me to worry about.
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:12 pm

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:42 pm

John1122 wrote:With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability

Is this referring to 4th jhana? Is this 'mind-made body' ever mentioned without the previous development of 4th jhana?
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby cbonanno » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:35 pm

As I understand it, it refers to the astral body and is part of body contemplation practice.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Of particular interest here is the Buddha's treatment of the three "acquisitions of a self." The first — the gross self — refers to the ordinary, everyday sense of identifying with one's body. The latter two — the mind-made acquisition and the formless acquisition — refer to the sense of self that can be developed in meditation. The mind-made acquisition can result from an experience of the mind-made body — the "astral body" — that constitutes one of the powers that can be developed through concentration practice.


And yes, the mind-made body occurs in the fourth jhana.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tions.html

"When he has thus gone forth, he [follows the Buddha's instructions until, after attaining the fourth jhana:] With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge & vision... to creating a mind-made body... to the modes of supranormal powers...
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby nibbuti » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:57 am

John1122 wrote:Any thoughts?

In my experience, manomayakaya is OBE, not very different from a 'mind body' within a dream.

It can be an eye-opener for some, like in a intense dream, but is rather ungrounding, confusing for most.

e.g. as a child I woke up with the intention to go to the toilet and confused, since it doesn't make much sense to go to the toilet without the bladder.

In any way, it is not the goal but on the contrary: to wake from the dream of 'having' or 'wanting' anything.

The benefits of simple body-awareness are far superior.

:meditate:
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby cbonanno » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:42 am

nibbuti wrote:
John1122 wrote:Any thoughts?


The benefits of simple body-awareness are far superior.

:meditate:


Can you explain why you feel that way? It does not make sense to me since mind-body awareness happens after once perfects body awareness. The mind-body is much harder to see and mind-body awareness in the 4th jhana that the Buddha said lead him to nibbana.
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby nibbuti » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:46 am

cbonanno wrote:Can you explain why you feel that way? It does not make sense to me since mind-body awareness happens after once perfects body awareness. The mind-body is much harder to see and mind-body awareness in the 4th jhana that the Buddha said lead him to nibbana.

Hi cbonanno. My experience is mind-body can arise without perfect body awareness, without jhana, and can leave without insights or anything worthy of mention.

It is mostly a matter of predisposition and trivial conditions like sleeplessness. I think what is more worthwhile is learning to let go of all 'mind stuff'.

Please show the sutta where Buddha said mind-body led to nibbana.

:anjali:
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby cbonanno » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:35 am

nibbuti wrote:
cbonanno wrote:Can you explain why you feel that way? It does not make sense to me since mind-body awareness happens after once perfects body awareness. The mind-body is much harder to see and mind-body awareness in the 4th jhana that the Buddha said lead him to nibbana.

Hi cbonanno. My experience is mind-body can arise without perfect body awareness, without jhana, and can leave without insights or anything worthy of mention.

It is mostly a matter of predisposition and trivial conditions like sleeplessness. I think what is more worthwhile is learning to let go of all 'mind stuff'.

Please show the sutta where Buddha said mind-body led to nibbana.

:anjali:


First to make clear, I did not say that mind-body lead to Nibbana, I said awareness of the mind-body led to Nibbana.

I already linked to the sutta above, the Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta: To Kevatta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.09.0.than.html

It is not just "mind-stuff", the mind-made body is something you learn to see in the meditative practice, not to hold on to, but as something to understand and use as a stepping stone to something higher, the formless self. It is a part of the three acquisitions of self. The mind-made body is part of complete body awareness.The Buddha taught how to see how we create the mind-made body which normal people do not have the concentration to see. The mind-made body is actually overshadowed by our gross body.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.

"This, too, is called the miracle of instruction.


The Buddha would not teach that it if was not important to the final release of Nibbana.

Also, to say that merging mind and body is "trivial" I would say there are some suttas that would disagree. Brahma lives in the mind-made realm and the Buddha used the mind-made body to visit and teach the Brahma. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/jootla/wheel414.html)

And this is something the gross body cannot do:
SN 51.22 "Now, whenever the Tathagata merges his body with his mind and his mind with his body, and remains having alighted on the perception of ease and buoyancy with regard to the body, then his body rises effortlessly from the earth up into the sky. He then experiences manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.


And for more proof we have also from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html

"When he has thus gone forth, he [follows the Buddha's instructions until, after attaining the fourth jhana:] With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge & vision... to creating a mind-made body... to the modes of supranormal powers... to the divine ear-element... to knowledge of the awareness of other beings...


In short, the Buddha teaches us to see this hard to see body so we can abandon it.
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby nibbuti » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:37 pm

Hi cbonanno. Thanks for the quotes.

Sure it exists, you don't need to prove anything friend.

But for those who experience it, it is nothing special per se, a child can do it spontaneously despite undeveloped mind.

That "awareness of the mind-body led to Nibbana" is probably not from the Buddha, since awareness of the mind-body is not the noble eightfold path.

How should this be understood: "the formless self. It is a part of the three acquisitions of self."?

Sounds like Hinduism to me.

:anjali:
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby cbonanno » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:11 pm

nibbuti wrote:Hi cbonanno. Thanks for the quotes.

Sure it exists, you don't need to prove anything friend.

But for those who experience it, it is nothing special per se, a child can do it spontaneously despite undeveloped mind.

That "awareness of the mind-body led to Nibbana" is probably not from the Buddha, since awareness of the mind-body is not the noble eightfold path.

How should this be understood: "the formless self. It is a part of the three acquisitions of self."?

Sounds like Hinduism to me.

:anjali:


Yes, a child could see the mind-made body because, not the he/she is "developed", but that they might not have had their diamond covered in dirt yet.

I just gave you a sutta where the Buddha spoke of awareness of mind-body (a subject of body contemplation) as one of the three acquisitions of self that we must see, control, and ultimately get rid of, in order to proceed to Nibanna.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body.
...
This, too, is called the miracle of instruction.


Have you read that whole sutta? These are the words of the Buddha, how could you not attribute them to his teaching? Hindu teaching usually ended with Brahma and the mind-made self (astral body), but the Buddha used his mind-made body to see Bramha and tell him his path was not done. The Buddha continued on to tell us to see the formless body and wrote a prescription about ho to get rid of that as well.

Something else to read as well that talks about this very subject:
http://mindfulnessofthebody.blogspot.co ... akaya.html

and

http://zennist.typepad.com/zenfiles/201 ... sider.html

This is in fact part of the Eightfold Path and would fall under right awareness.
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby nibbuti » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:01 pm

cbonanno wrote:I just gave you a sutta where the Buddha spoke of awareness of mind-body (a subject of body contemplation) as one of the three acquisitions of self that we must see, control, and ultimately get rid of, in order to proceed to Nibanna.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body.
...
This, too, is called the miracle of instruction.


Have you read that whole sutta? These are the words of the Buddha, how could you not attribute them to his teaching? Hindu teaching usually ended with Brahma and the mind-made self (astral body), but the Buddha used his mind-made body to see Bramha and tell him his path was not done. The Buddha continued on to tell us to see the formless body and wrote a prescription about ho to get rid of that as well.

Something else to read as well that talks about this very subject:
http://mindfulnessofthebody.blogspot.co ... akaya.html

and

http://zennist.typepad.com/zenfiles/201 ... sider.html

This is in fact part of the Eightfold Path and would fall under right awareness.

Hi cbonanno.

Have you actually experienced this for yourself? Or do you only take for granted what you read in some dubious parts of the DN?

(The DN is known to be Brahmanistic/Hindu in flavor and developed late in time.)

Do you realize that not all Arahants have equal abilities, like Sariputta who was best in explaining the Dhamma?

Do you realize that many people who are interested in OBE and mind-body stuff have no idea of nibbana?

Do you realize that craving for immaterial existence is one of the ten fetters?

:anjali:
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Re: The Mind-made Body. Thoughts?

Postby cbonanno » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:52 pm

nibbuti wrote:
cbonanno wrote:I just gave you a sutta where the Buddha spoke of awareness of mind-body (a subject of body contemplation) as one of the three acquisitions of self that we must see, control, and ultimately get rid of, in order to proceed to Nibanna.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body.
...
This, too, is called the miracle of instruction.


Have you read that whole sutta? These are the words of the Buddha, how could you not attribute them to his teaching? Hindu teaching usually ended with Brahma and the mind-made self (astral body), but the Buddha used his mind-made body to see Bramha and tell him his path was not done. The Buddha continued on to tell us to see the formless body and wrote a prescription about ho to get rid of that as well.

Something else to read as well that talks about this very subject:
http://mindfulnessofthebody.blogspot.co ... akaya.html

and

http://zennist.typepad.com/zenfiles/201 ... sider.html

This is in fact part of the Eightfold Path and would fall under right awareness.

Hi cbonanno.

Have you actually experienced this for yourself? Or do you only take for granted what you read in some dubious parts of the DN?

(The DN is known to be Brahmanistic/Hindu in flavor and developed late in time.)

Do you realize that not all Arahants have equal abilities, like Sariputta who was best in explaining the Dhamma?

Do you realize that many people who are interested in OBE and mind-body stuff have no idea of nibbana?

Do you realize that craving for immaterial existence is one of the ten fetters?

:anjali:


Do you realize your are misunderstanding me? I do not want astral travel or OBE or immaterial existence. I am talking about getting over all notions of body, gross, mind-made, and formless. That is the goal.

The DN is part of the Tripitaka and contains the Buddha's Dhamma. Dubious? That is interesting.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/index.html

I have tested the Buddha's cooling Dhamma and I found it in practice to be true. That has given me faith to keep practicing. That Is all I will say on my experiences.

:namaste:
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