Are Malas a form of garland?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Alobha
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Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Alobha »

Hi everyone,
I undertake to abstain from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands
Are Malas considered to fall under this precepts or can Malas be worn without breaking this precept?

Thanks for your input :smile:
daverupa
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by daverupa »

It comes down to intent; is the intent to beautify the body, or to increase presence of mind? Does the mala have to be "pretty", and will you not wear an "ugly" one? Is it a piece of flair which you hope will broadcast the identity "I am a Buddhist"? And so forth...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Cittasanto
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

Alobha wrote:Hi everyone,
I undertake to abstain from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands
Are Malas considered to fall under this precepts or can Malas be worn without breaking this precept?

Thanks for your input :smile:
YES look at the pali
7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visukkadassana MALA-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanathana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Alobha
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Alobha »

Cittasanto wrote:
Alobha wrote:Hi everyone,
I undertake to abstain from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands
Are Malas considered to fall under this precepts or can Malas be worn without breaking this precept?

Thanks for your input :smile:
YES look at the pali
7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visukkadassana MALA-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanathana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
Yes to: "Malas fall under this precept" or to "Malas can be worn without breaking this precept?"
I can't read whole sentences in Pali.
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Khalil Bodhi
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Khalil Bodhi »

I wear my malas not with the intent to beautify but as reminders and tools. I'm usually a stickler but I truly don't believe these are the types of malas meant (although I do give it thought every uposatha day when reciting the attha-sila). Mettaya and happy uposatha (I'm wearing my mala now :tongue: )
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
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Cittasanto
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

Alobha wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: YES look at the pali
7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visukkadassana MALA-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanathana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
Yes to: "Malas fall under this precept" or to "Malas can be worn without breaking this precept?"
I can't read whole sentences in Pali.
It is the seventh precept in pali.
so yes to the former, they do break the precept.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Bakmoon
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Bakmoon »

Khalil Bodhi wrote:I wear my malas not with the intent to beautify but as reminders and tools. I'm usually a stickler but I truly don't believe these are the types of malas meant (although I do give it thought every uposatha day when reciting the attha-sila). Mettaya and happy uposatha (I'm wearing my mala now :tongue: )
Cool! By the way, how can Malas be used as part of Theravadin practice?
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

Bakmoon wrote:
Khalil Bodhi wrote:I wear my malas not with the intent to beautify but as reminders and tools. I'm usually a stickler but I truly don't believe these are the types of malas meant (although I do give it thought every uposatha day when reciting the attha-sila). Mettaya and happy uposatha (I'm wearing my mala now :tongue: )
Cool! By the way, how can Malas be used as part of Theravadin practice?
I can not answer for Kalil,
However, I use them when I am reciting a specific recollection.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
gendun
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by gendun »

" Yes to: "Malas fall under this precept" or to "Malas can be worn without breaking this precept?"
I can't read whole sentences in Pali.[/quote]
It is the seventh precept in pali.
so yes to the former, they do break the precept.[/quote]"


I recently did a Vipassana retreat with a disciple of Webu Sayadaw. The main teacher wore a mala which she had been given by the Sayadaw. On the wall was a photograph of him wearing the same mala.
Are you saying that the teacher and Webu Sayadaw were breaking the precept ?
I think perhaps we need a Pali scholar able to distinguish between a flower garland and a japa-mala.
I am sure they exist on the forum.
Gendun P. Brownlow.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

gendun wrote:I recently did a Vipassana retreat with a disciple of Webu Sayadaw. The main teacher wore a mala which she had been given by the Sayadaw. On the wall was a photograph of him wearing the same mala.
Are you saying that the teacher and Webu Sayadaw were breaking the precept ?
I think perhaps we need a Pali scholar able to distinguish between a flower garland and a japa-mala.
I am sure they exist on the forum.
A Mala is not necessarily a "flower" garland, and the rule does not specify it is made out of flowers. hence the name japa-mala (recitation garland) still applies even though they are not made of flowers. that is no more than trying to get around what they are. do note I did not say wearing malas always break the precept.

Different groups understand what is included here in different ways. For instance the male side at Amaravati don't wear malas as a keeping of the precept, yet the women don't necessarily follow this understanding. the same is true for watches where some monks don't wear them due to this rule, yet others do.

You need to understand that violating the precept and something being included are not the same thing. Something that serves a practical purpose does not necessarily break the precept yet can be something which is understood as advised against within the precept. a case in point is the watch scenario.

Gendun, a plea to authority fallacy is no more than a fallacy.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
gendun
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by gendun »

Well as my Vajrayana teacher says "the "appeal to authority fallacy" is itself a fallacy in regards to the Buddha's Dharma ". :smile:
But in any case I was not making any such appeal.
I am new to the Theravada. The retreat I mentioned above sparked my interest in the Theravada.
I am clueless concerning the Theravada application of the precepts.
I was merely pointing out what appears to be anomaly between the absolutist view you gave above, ( which you are now modifying ) and what I encountered in a real life situation with experienced Theravada teachers.
Last edited by gendun on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by gendun »

7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visukkadassana MALA-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanathana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
[/quote]

Yes to: "Malas fall under this precept" or to "Malas can be worn without breaking this precept?"
I can't read whole sentences in Pali.[/quote]
It is the seventh precept in pali.
so yes to the former, they do break the precept.[/quote]


HERE is the post I refer to. There seems to be no qualifiers here regarding different groups .
You state quite clearly that they ( malas ) " do break the precept ".
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by badscooter »

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#scents
"Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to scents, cosmetics, and means of beautification such as these — rubbing powders into the body, massaging with oils, bathing in perfumed water, kneading the limbs, using mirrors, ointments, garlands, scents, creams, face-powders, mascara, bracelets, head-bands, decorated walking sticks, ornamented water-bottles, swords, fancy sunshades, decorated sandals, turbans, gems, yak-tail whisks, long-fringed white robes — he abstains from using scents, cosmetics, and means of beautification such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
I believe intention is the main thing to consider here. If you are wearing them, not as a means to beautify yourself, but to help with practice, then it seems to me that it is ok... If your intent is to wear just as costume, then that would be breaking the precept.

may all be well
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by gendun »

Thank you Billymac thats pretty much what I figured to be the actual Theravada position.
As far as the Vajrayana goes of course, malas are virtually compulsory ! :smile:
Many of us are given one by a teacher and expected to use it for its intended purpose.
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Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

gendun wrote:Well as my Vajrayana teacher says "the "appeal to authority fallacy" is itself a fallacy in regards to the Buddha's Dharma ". :smile:
But in any case I was not making any such appeal.
I am new to the Theravada. The retreat I mentioned above sparked my interest in the Theravada.
I am clueless concerning the Theravada application of the precepts.
I was merely pointing out what appears to be anomaly between the absolutist view you gave above, ( which you are now modifying ) and what I encountered in a real life situation with experienced Theravada teachers.
Well fallacies can still (and do) happen. What some anonymous Vajrayana teacher has to say about them is not really relevant.
You were making such an appeal here by calling for someone who “knows” what they are talking about to clarify without knowing my background with pali or monastic settings, while pointing out what you thought was a difference between mala in the pali and malas being discussed.
I think perhaps we need a Pali scholar able to distinguish between a flower garland and a japa-mala.
I am sure they exist on the forum.
Providing further information is not modifying anything. As the question stood to malas being included in the precept they clearly do, hence it breeches the precept. This is a matter of fact regarding their inclusion. Not dealing with the interpretations some may or may not have.

But what does your real life experience mean here?
gendun wrote:HERE is the post I refer to. There seems to be no qualifiers here regarding different groups .
You state quite clearly that they ( malas ) " do break the precept ".
I knew what post you were referring to as you quoted it earlier.
I am solely dealing with the rule not interpretation.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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