Are Malas a form of garland?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

Billymac29 wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#scents
"Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to scents, cosmetics, and means of beautification such as these — rubbing powders into the body, massaging with oils, bathing in perfumed water, kneading the limbs, using mirrors, ointments, garlands, scents, creams, face-powders, mascara, bracelets, head-bands, decorated walking sticks, ornamented water-bottles, swords, fancy sunshades, decorated sandals, turbans, gems, yak-tail whisks, long-fringed white robes — he abstains from using scents, cosmetics, and means of beautification such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
I believe intention is the main thing to consider here. If you are wearing them, not as a means to beautify yourself, but to help with practice, then it seems to me that it is ok... If your intent is to wear just as costume, then that would be breaking the precept.

may all be well
Where do you get intention being a factor which makes it a moot issue?
as you are quoting the monastic practice you should be aware that intention does not always cancel out an action, and sometimes it isn't even a factor.
if you look at the actual rule from the vinaya
Cv.V.2.1 -
Cv.V.2.1 - my rendering wrote:For one who wears an ear ornaments, chains, necklaces, ornaments for the waist, ornamental girdles, armlets, bracelets, & finger rings should not be worn, An offence of wrongdoing
the wearing itself is the fault, and intention does not negate the matter.

and another rendering of the passage
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe20/sbe20017.htm wrote:1. Now at that time the Khabbaggiya Bhikkhus

p. 69

used to wear ear-rings 1, and ear-drops 2, and strings of beads for the throat, and girdles of beads 3, and bangles 4, and necklaces 5, and bracelets, and rings.

The people murmured, &c. . . . . The Bhikkhus heard, &c. . . . . They told the, Blessed One (&c., as in II, 1, 1, down to) he addressed the Bhikkhus, and said:

'You are not, O Bhikkhus, to wear any of these things. Whosoever does so, shall be guilty of a dukkata.'
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
gendun
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:49 am
Location: Guildford UK

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by gendun »

Cittasanto wrote:
gendun wrote:Well as my Vajrayana teacher says "the "appeal to authority fallacy" is itself a fallacy in regards to the Buddha's Dharma ". :smile:
But in any case I was not making any such appeal.
I am new to the Theravada. The retreat I mentioned above sparked my interest in the Theravada.
I am clueless concerning the Theravada application of the precepts.
I was merely pointing out what appears to be anomaly between the absolutist view you gave above, ( which you are now modifying ) and what I encountered in a real life situation with experienced Theravada teachers.
Well fallacies can still (and do) happen. What some anonymous Vajrayana teacher has to say about them is not really relevant.
You were making such an appeal here by calling for someone who “knows” what they are talking about to clarify without knowing my background with pali or monastic settings, while pointing out what you thought was a difference between mala in the pali and malas being discussed.
I think perhaps we need a Pali scholar able to distinguish between a flower garland and a japa-mala.
I am sure they exist on the forum.
Providing further information is not modifying anything. As the question stood to malas being included in the precept they clearly do, hence it breeches the precept. This is a matter of fact regarding their inclusion. Not dealing with the interpretations some may or may not have.

But what does your real life experience mean here?
gendun wrote:HERE is the post I refer to. There seems to be no qualifiers here regarding different groups .
You state quite clearly that they ( malas ) " do break the precept ".
I knew what post you were referring to as you quoted it earlier.
I am solely dealing with the rule not interpretation.
Thank you for your efforts .Unfortunately I am none the wiser about what constitutes the Theravada position.
No worries. It dont take a weatherman to see which way the wind blows.
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

gendun wrote:Thank you for your efforts .Unfortunately I am none the wiser about what constitutes the Theravada position.
No worries. It dont take a weatherman to see which way the wind blows.
unfortunately I wasn't trying to tell you which way the wind blows, and as you had your own preconditions you werent actually interested in what the rules actually said.
I have only been dealing with the rules as they are, no additions.

the Dhamma maybe visible in the here and now, but it takes wisdom to put aside personal preferences.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
gendun
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:49 am
Location: Guildford UK

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by gendun »

I am baffled by your negative tone.
I see nothing in the OP to suggest that the poster was asking about the Bhikkhu Vinaya.
In my case I noted that you were suggesting that the wearing of malas for any reason was a breach of precept.
That puzzled me and still does.
For the reason I outlined. That I have seen a photograph of a highly respected Bhikku wearing a mala.
And a lay person of many years experience who daily takes the 8 precepts and leads others in so doing wearing the same mala.

Incidentally the "fallacy of appealing to authority" is one of a series of possible failures of logic in defending a position.
I was merely asking for clarification about a matter about which I have little knowledge . And I asked a simple question in good faith.
I find your dismissive and defensive response both disappointing and frankly very odd.
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

gendun wrote:I am baffled by your negative tone.
I see nothing in the OP to suggest that the poster was asking about the Bhikkhu Vinaya.
In my case I noted that you were suggesting that the wearing of malas for any reason was a breach of precept.
That puzzled me and still does.
For the reason I outlined. That I have seen a photograph of a highly respected Bhikku wearing a mala.
And a lay person of many years experience who daily takes the 8 precepts and leads others in so doing wearing the same mala.

Incidentally the "fallacy of appealing to authority" is one of a series of possible failures of logic in defending a position.
I was merely asking for clarification about a matter about which I have little knowledge . And I asked a simple question in good faith.
I find your dismissive and defensive response both disappointing and frankly very odd.
Without getting involved here, I'd just like to point out that "mala" in Pali can mean a lot of different things, and in this case it is pretty clear that the reference is to decorative accessories and beautifying agents. Malas worn for religious purposes would not, in my opinion, fall under this, although many Bhikkhus do avoid them just to make sure no one gets the wrong idea about why they are wearing them. Malas are not used nearly as often in Theravada, so whereas a Karma Kagyu would see a llama with a mala and say, "Oh, he's using that for meditation or recitation", it would be easy for a Theravadin student to see a Bhikkhu with one around his neck and say, "Wow, why is he wearing that necklace?"

Either way, I think most would agree that it is allowed but not necessarily the wisest in many cases.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
gendun
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:49 am
Location: Guildford UK

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by gendun »

Thank you for your considerate reply Lonesome Yoghurt.


:anjali:
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

gendun wrote:I see nothing in the OP to suggest that the poster was asking about the Bhikkhu Vinaya.
In my case I noted that you were suggesting that the wearing of malas for any reason was a breach of precept.
That puzzled me and still does.
For the reason I outlined. That I have seen a photograph of a highly respected Bhikku wearing a mala.
And a lay person of many years experience who daily takes the 8 precepts and leads others in so doing wearing the same mala.
as I have said before I am not dealing with interpretations of the rules, only explaining what is and is not in the rule itself. I went as far into explaining interpretation as I wished to go and that was that. As a result there is not much I am actually saying other than something is or is not present.

another result is I have not actually dealt with the vinaya as a picture of a mendicant and their disciple (who I thought was a mendicant) would be under the rule I quoted in Cv.V.2.1 not the rule lay people live under one day a week. but there are several things not present which you have supposed would be. You have kept bringing up a Bhikkhu so the seventh precept is not something they follow directly, yet their is a corresponding rule they do follow. which was only quoted when a passage and assertion were given relevant to mendicants. not that I was dealing with that rule in corresponding to you.
gendun wrote:I am baffled by your negative tone.
....

Incidentally the "fallacy of appealing to authority" is one of a series of possible failures of logic in defending a position.
I was merely asking for clarification about a matter about which I have little knowledge . And I asked a simple question in good faith.
I find your dismissive and defensive response both disappointing and frankly very odd.
I do not usually fluff up what I say and I am not going to do so because someone prefers it to be that way. now if I was mistaken with the appeal to authority claim, great news, and I am sorry for the misunderstanding. but I communicate the way I communicate not the way you do, and to suppose I am being negative or anything else is not demonstrative of it being the case.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
gendun
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:49 am
Location: Guildford UK

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by gendun »

Probably best if we forget that I asked.
As I said doing a Vipassana retreat piqued my interest in the Theravada.
But I seem to have unwittingly provoked a response that I certainly did not intend.
Sorry to have bothered you.

:anjali:
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by badscooter »

Cittasanto wrote: Where do you get intention being a factor which makes it a moot issue?
The purpose for not wearing these things is for not decorating oneself for beautification sake. However, if one puts a beed counting string on his wrist so he can travel with it (not adorn it), I don't see it as breaking the precept the way, I believe, the Buddha meant it.
the wearing itself is the fault, and intention does not negate the matter.
This your point of view. Your entitled to it. However, I think it's wrong.

may all be well :D
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

Billymac29 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: Where do you get intention being a factor which makes it a moot issue?
The purpose for not wearing these things is for not decorating oneself for beautification sake. However, if one puts a beed counting string on his wrist so he can travel with it (not adorn it), I don't see it as breaking the precept the way, I believe, the Buddha meant it.
the wearing itself is the fault, and intention does not negate the matter.
This your point of view. Your entitled to it. However, I think it's wrong.

may all be well :D
Sorry I haven't shared my personal point of view.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Mr Man »

Cittasanto. Why don't you give it a break. Can't you help youself?
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by badscooter »

Cittasanto wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: Where do you get intention being a factor which makes it a moot issue?
The purpose for not wearing these things is for not decorating oneself for beautification sake. However, if one puts a beed counting string on his wrist so he can travel with it (not adorn it), I don't see it as breaking the precept the way, I believe, the Buddha meant it.
the wearing itself is the fault, and intention does not negate the matter.
This your point of view. Your entitled to it. However, I think it's wrong.

may all be well :D
Sorry I haven't shared my personal point of view.
You interpretation of what you read is your point of view.....
the wearing itself is the fault, and intention does not negate the matter.
thats your take on what the precept means... aka "your point of view"
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by badscooter »

Cv.V.2.1 - my rendering wrote:
For one who wears an ear ornaments, chains, necklaces, ornaments for the waist, ornamental girdles, armlets, bracelets, & finger rings should not be worn, An offence of wrongdoing
this all has to do with adorning oneself/the body.... japa malas do not need to be worn for adornment or decoration.. If there is no adornment, then there is no breaking of the precept... There needs to be some intellectual comprehension...

may all be well
:)
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
User avatar
Alobha
Posts: 565
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Alobha »

@ Moderation: Please close my thread.

I have specifically asked about what the precept is saying. Cittasanto made a good point, one needs to be careful not to bend the Dhamma to fit one's own preferences (or subtle desires), which I'm careful not to do in the case of the precepts. I'm also aware that it's important to keep the intention/spirit of a rule in mind for a better understanding and to see "what matters".

Let's leave it at that.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Are Malas a form of garland?

Post by Cittasanto »

Alobha wrote:@ Moderation: Please close my thread.

I have specifically asked about what the precept is saying. Cittasanto made a good point, one needs to be careful not to bend the Dhamma to fit one's own preferences (or subtle desires), which I'm careful not to do in the case of the precepts. I'm also aware that it's important to keep the intention/spirit of a rule in mind for a better understanding and to see "what matters".

Let's leave it at that.
:)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Locked