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the great rebirth debate - Page 169 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:19 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:37 am


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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:46 am


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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:56 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:37 am

Greetings Alex,

See it as you wish ~ you continue to grab the water-snake by the tail and experience commensurate results...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby vinasp » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:17 pm

Hi everyone,

As one grows up one comes to acquire a multitude of beliefs.

The sum total of these beliefs is one's 'world'.

One experiences this 'world' as reality - as how things really are.

So one has constructed one's own reality but then one experiences it as something
independent of oneself.

This reality can be very stable and persist for many years.

It seems that most people become trapped in this reality which they have constructed.

They seem unable to escape or find a way out.

The Buddha shows the way out, by deconstructing that which has been constructed.

Early Buddhism is about deconstructing reality.

The later Theravada teachings offer two choices, if you desire enlightenment in this
life then deconstruct reality, if not, then believe what the teachings say.

Reality is constructed using concepts and the rules of logic and grammar.

Nothing constructed in this way is anything more than a provisional truth.

Beyond this provisional truth is something that can be experienced but cannot be
expressed in words.

Regards, Vincent.

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:25 pm

The risk/reward analysis seems deficient to me; ultimately, the form it's taking is argumentum ad ignorantum - "since I can't see the benefit without this metaphysical bowling ball, there's no way it makes sense without that bowling ball." The risk/reward analysis given in the Suttas follows a different course.

There are a number of confusing things: the use of -"honest"- in quotes for the workplace scenario is interesting, because there are many creative ways to uphold the precepts, a task which is so much easier when they are rooted in the brahmaviharas, rather than seen as commandments. Don't underestimate silent equanimity - but perhaps this is to be a doormat, in your eyes? That's something worth talking about in detail, I expect. In any event, there's room here to refine the approach.

Unfortunately, even the working poor in the Western world tend to have better quality of life than kings and princes back in the Buddha's day, so I wonder if there's a paradigm shift which might contextualize things more skillfully. "What one is accustomed to" is no argument at all, and "optimum functioning" needs unpacking because what's optimal is defined in reference to widely varying subjective goals, and some of those won't be in line with the Dhamma.

The self-defense line is also confusing, as there's ample room for self-defense within the boundaries of the precepts. Flicking mosquitoes can fall here as well, as a form of preventative medicine - remember, the intent matters (and swatting them can get their guts under your skin, which is no good).

And with respect to hunting for some people in some places... somehow we've left your point of view behind, and ended up theorycrafting rather than addressing actual difficulties you experience. This is confusing as well. Are you a subsistence hunter?

These objections are all over the map...

alan...
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby alan... » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:30 pm


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Jerrod Lopes
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Jerrod Lopes » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:39 pm


perkele
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby perkele » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:44 pm


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Jerrod Lopes
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Jerrod Lopes » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:46 pm

It will most certainly keep you form those types of situations to begin with as you will be making diffrent kinds of kamma as your practice progresses. You will no longer be in places you would have been in, thus preventing such occurrences to begin with. For instance: I don't go to bars anymore and end up in fights with people in bars. If I don't go to bars, the likelihood of me being involved in a barfight drops to nearly zero, yes? Simple. Kamma. This is the sort of thing that determines what kind of rebirth, if any, occurs. It's all about kamma.

Or am I misunderstanding and your first sentence should be taken as a lesson in proper use of written english? :thinking:

perkele
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby perkele » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:07 am

I merely meant to point out that just stopping "bad behaviour" may not automatically stop bad results from happening which were caused by bad actions earlier. So it might well happen that you get into a bad situation although you don't have any bad intention.

Since you were practically saying that the monk's rule allowing bhikkhus to punch someone to get out of a threatening situation is superfluous, because according to your view such a situation could only arise when the monks intentions are not "pure", I thought this would be worth pointing out.

My point was only to defend the Bhikkhu's rule as being quite sound and reasonable in my eyes.

The fact that you don't go into bars anymore, and based on that don't get into barfights anymore, is no good reason to declare that bhikkhu rule as invalid or poorly thought out or whatever. Your particular situation can't be generalized to everything.

That's what I meant to say. Hope it's more clear now. Sorry if it wasn't before.

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Jerrod Lopes
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Jerrod Lopes » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:44 am


perkele
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby perkele » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:17 am

Good, good. So we agree. :)
No worries. I was not intent upon starting a bar fight, just trying to correct what looked wrong to me. :ugeek:
Now I'll go back to my planet.
:alien:

steve19800
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby steve19800 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:39 am

Hi guys,

Sorry to cut this in the middle, just a quick question. I got this link from the first page:

It is undoubtedly true that the mental condition of the parents at the moment of conception has a considerable influence upon the character of the embryonic being, and that the nature of the mother may make a deep impression on the character of the child she bears in her womb. The indivisible unity of the psychic individuality of the child, however, can in no way be produced by the parents. One must here never confound the actual cause — the preceding state out of which the later state arises — with the influences and conditions from without. If it were really the case that the new individual, as an inseparable whole, was begotten by its parents, twins could never exhibit totally opposite tendencies. In such a case, children, especially twins, would, with positively no exception, always be found to possess the same character as the parents.
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 4.html#ch2)

Underlining the bold sentence, the mental condition of parents has a considerable influence upon the character of the children but not psychic (mental) individuality of the child. From the sentence above, does the character of the child implying for example the tendency of a child to have a sadness character or angry character?

If the character of the child is 'shaped' at the moment of conception does this mean the character of a child related to the mindfulness of the parents at the moment of conception and an 'accident' for instance as the result? While psychic/mental individuality of the child can in no way be produced by the parents, this means the child has his own mental individuality, although I am not quite sure how to differentiate distinctively between the character and mental of the child. Some people may have mental anxiety or depression but depression itself can also relate to the sadness personality/character.

Can we say the mental of the child is related to his own past lives and kamma while his character is not kamma related but inherited from his parents?

Thanks _/\_

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:01 pm

None of that is found in the Nikayas, so I'd not bother with such psychic maths. It's a form of "how am I", and thus inappropriate to attend to, per .

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gavesako
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby gavesako » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:42 am

Rebirth and Not-Rebirth in Buddhism - Ashin Ottama

Published on Jan 21, 2013
Last 25 minutes of this video present new understanding of 'afterlife'. Jump directly to position 01:01:55.
CONTENTS of the video:
00:30 The epicenter of original Buddha's Message
07:10 God-Creator versus the Buddha
10:40 Karma, Rebirth, Samsara, Bhumi
24:00 Buddhism without beliefs
27:25 Here-and-Now against the 'Dharma-cake'
30:55 Additions and later created teachings
36:05 Spiritual 'landscape' with many peaks
39:26 Ajahn Buddhadasa
53:40 Rebirth and Samsara in the Scriptures
1:01:55 Indications for rebirth
1:03:00 Children's memories, tapping collective memory
1:07:05 Unreliable hypnoses and regressions
1:12:00 Mind undocked from brain
1:16:20 Near Death Experiences
1:18:15 Sweat-through pajamas
1:20:50 New understanding of 'afterlife'

This video is a Buddhist Dharma-talk, but the last half-hour is highly recommendable to all thoughtful people: it points to the unexpected nature and reality of 'afterlife'.

http://youtu.be/RGeTBmRqpfY
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

greggorious
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby greggorious » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:17 pm

For those of you who do believe in Re-birth, do you believe there's a process after death, kind of like the Tibetan book of the dead, or that you're pretty much re-born straight away? I've read a few books on near death experiences and from what I gather, there's definitely some kind of process involved.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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Jerrod Lopes
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Jerrod Lopes » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:53 am

I "believe" in rebirth, but nothing at all like in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. The Buddha didn't teach anything like that. How quickly or slowly a rebirth takes place is all about the kammas made before the death took place. Each one is unique to the being that died. There's no easy, cut and dried answer for that question unless you can see kamma and determine the likely results very well. Not impossible though.

My view on the process of dying is that at or very near the final stages it is very much like jhana in terms of perceptions. This would be the case in a relatively peaceful, natural and not sudden death. As for sudden deaths, I think it can be instantaneous with no perceivable events by the one dying ( i.e. one minute there, the next gone).

Be well. :)

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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ben » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:24 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

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