Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby cooran » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:53 pm

Some articles about the inappropriate linking of Theravada to the insulting term Hinayana linked in the OP:

The Myth of the Hinayana by Kare A. Lie
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha140.htm
Mahayana, Hinayana, Theravada
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha091.htm
Mahayana and Hinayana Ven. Abhinyana
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha188.htm

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Yana » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:50 am

:offtopic: omg...i' saw my name..am pleasantly surprised

this is so off topic but i can't believe my devout christian parents gave me a name that actually meant something in Buddhism!!ahh YES!makes me just wanna practice harder grrr :focus: :woohoo: :tongue:
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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby plwk » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:36 pm

I don't know. I think Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche would disagree with you. He's quite infamous for sending those, who aspire to be monks in tibetan buddhist tradition, at Thailand etc, in Theravada monasteries, because it's more close to the original vinaya what Siddhartha taught thousands years ago.
Maybe Rinpoche would like to re-visit his sources...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sthavirav%C4%81da
The Sthaviras later divided into other schools such as the Sarvāstivāda school and the Vibhajjavāda (Sanskrit: Vibhajyavāda) school.
The resultant Vibhajjavāda branch gave rise to a number of schools such as the Tāmraparnīya (later called Theravada), the Dharmaguptaka school, the Mahīśāsaka school, and the Kāśyapīya school.

The Theravāda school of Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia has identified itself exclusively with the Sthaviravāda, as the Pali word thera is equivalent to the Sanskrit sthavira. This has led early Western historians to assume that the two parties are identical.

However, this is not the case, and by the time of Ashoka, the Sthaviravāda school had split into the Sammitīya, Sarvāstivāda, and the Vibhajyavāda schools.
The Vibhajyavāda school is believed to have split into other schools as well, such as the Mahīśāsaka school and the ancestor of the Theravāda school.
According to Damien Keown, there is no historical evidence that the Theravāda school arose until around two centuries after the Great Schism which occurred at the Third Council.

According to the Mahāvaṃsa, a Theravādin source, after the Second Council was closed those taking the side of junior monks did not accept the verdict but held an assembly of their own attended by ten thousand calling it a Mahasangiti (Great Convocation) from which the school derived its name Mahāsāṃghika.
However, such popular explanations of Sthaviravāda and Mahāsāṃghika are generally considered folk etymologies.
The Theravādin Dīpavaṃsa clarifies that the name Theravāda refers to the "old" teachings, making no indication that it refers to the Second Council.
Similarly, the name Mahāsāṃghika is in reference to those who follow the original Vinaya of the undivided Saṃgha.

Andrew Skilton has suggested that the problems of contradictory accounts are solved by the Mahāsāṃghika Śariputraparipṛcchā, which is the earliest surviving account of the schism. In this account, the council was convened at Pāṭaliputra over matters of vinaya, and it is explained that the schism resulted from the majority (Mahāsaṃgha) refusing to accept the addition of rules to the Vinaya by the minority (Sthaviras). The Mahāsāṃghikas therefore saw the Sthaviras as being a breakaway group which was attempting to modify the original Vinaya.

Scholars have generally agreed that the matter of dispute was indeed a matter of vinaya, and have noted that the account of the Mahāsāṃghikas is bolstered by the vinaya texts themselves, as vinayas associated with the Sthaviras do contain more rules than those of the Mahāsāṃghika Vinaya. Modern scholarship therefore generally agrees that the Mahāsāṃghika Vinaya is the oldest. According to Skilton, future scholars may determine that a study of the Mahāsāṃghika school will contribute to a better understanding of the early Dharma-Vinaya than the Theravāda school.
And of course, anyone familiar with the case of the great Nalanda Pandita Atisa would know that he was unable to transmit the Mahāsāṃghika Vinaya, to which he belonged to, upon the request of the Tibetan king during his time who was firm on the established single system of the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya which was already transmitted by another earlier and reknown Nalanda Pandita, Santaraksita...

Now, if only their present day Elders would speed up work on the issue of establishing the Siksamana and Bhiksuni ordinations...
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Raitanator » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:54 pm

plwk wrote:Maybe Rinpoche would like to re-visit his sources...

Now, if only their present day Elders would speed up work on the issue of establishing the Siksamana and Bhiksuni ordinations...


Sorry, I didn't get your point from that wall of text. Could you elaborate a bit, in your own words, why he should re-visit his sources. Dalai lama, and other lamas, are doing lot of work to establish bhikkuni-order back to tibetan buddhist tradition.

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby plwk » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:59 pm

Sorry, I didn't get your point from that wall of text. Could you elaborate a bit, in your own words, why he should re-visit his sources.

That firstly, the Theravada Vinaya may not be what he thinks 'the closest to the original' as is the Mulasarvastivadin or the Dharmaguptaka Vinayas.... hence the 'wall of text' explaining at some length...

So secondly, it may not be necessary to send any Tibetan Buddhist monastic novitiates or aspirants to another 'camp', except just as an educational visit, as what they have already is functional and ongoing valid Vinaya. Is Rinpoche implying that the Mulasarvastivadin monastics are not on par with their Theravadin 'cousins', in terms of Vinaya letter or practice?

Perhaps, the practice part? What they may want to look at are perhaps ongoing stuff like how strictly do they maintain the Vinaya and the many 'concessions' made under the additional superceding Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows/Precepts...

Some of the most common examples I have heard, read and seen are like issues on re-educating the laity and themselves on what are the proper dana requisite items for monastics when offering to the them, re-looking into the traditional monetary dana given by the laity to the monastics directly, whether in envelopes or without. Producing blessed amulets like chakras, roos, pendants, blessed strings? Doing divinations, oracles, astrological calculations and what not? And another one, monastics partaking of full meals at 'unseeming hours', dinner for instance? Wearing of lay clothing by some, fully or partially with robes? And the sticky issue of taking of consorts by some?

To be fair, places like Thailand, Myammar, Sri Lanka and the Indo China countries where Theravada has a traditional stronghold also manifest some of the listed but surely, Rinpoche is aware of these issues and concerns as well when he wants to expose the aspirants to the 'cousins'? The objective letter of the Vinaya vs the realities of daily affairs? And you are aware that in Theravada there's the monastic dhutanga/ascetic practice, which is more austere than the common monastic practice, right? Does he want them to learn about this too? Perhaps, he can recommend them also to experience the Chinese Dharmagutaka side who have this monastic dhuta practice kept alive by a minority?

Just thinking aloud...
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Raitanator » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:07 am

plwk wrote:
Sorry, I didn't get your point from that wall of text. Could you elaborate a bit, in your own words, why he should re-visit his sources.

That firstly, the Theravada Vinaya may not be what he thinks 'the closest to the original' as is the Mulasarvastivadin or the Dharmaguptaka Vinayas.... hence the 'wall of text' explaining at some length...

So secondly, it may not be necessary to send any Tibetan Buddhist monastic novitiates or aspirants to another 'camp', except just as an educational visit, as what they have already is functional and ongoing valid Vinaya. Is Rinpoche implying that the Mulasarvastivadin monastics are not on par with their Theravadin 'cousins', in terms of Vinaya letter or practice?

Perhaps, the practice part? What they may want to look at are perhaps ongoing stuff like how strictly do they maintain the Vinaya and the many 'concessions' made under the additional superceding Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows/Precepts...


Well, the thing is that when tibetans adopted monastic system, they had to make compromises here and there, because of the society and harsh enviroment. For example, daily dana-rally had to be changed to one big alms-round in autumn, just after when barley was harvested. This way they filled their supplies for the winter. In Thailand, it's pretty much the same what Siddhartha and fellows practiced in India at ancient times.

And what comes to Tantric vows, it's really a shamefur dispray for tibetan buddhist: if one has taken vinaya, one must follow it, no matter what. Lamas are also quite strict about this. However, some become disillusioned with tantric vows and use them as an excuse to do whatever they want (display whole variety of attachments) instead of using it as method to get free from judgements during meditation. Add some more cultish groups to that and you have can of worms ready to be opened. So, I guess, yes. And what comes to consorts, monks are not allowed to have them, no matter what some crazies might say, in tibetan buddhist tradition, just like in Theravadan. However, to be a lama, you don't necessarily have to be a monk/nun. And just like every other laypeople out there, they're free to have girlfriends.

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:27 pm

Raitanator wrote:
plwk wrote:
Sorry, I didn't get your point from that wall of text. Could you elaborate a bit, in your own words, why he should re-visit his sources.

That firstly, the Theravada Vinaya may not be what he thinks 'the closest to the original' as is the Mulasarvastivadin or the Dharmaguptaka Vinayas.... hence the 'wall of text' explaining at some length...

So secondly, it may not be necessary to send any Tibetan Buddhist monastic novitiates or aspirants to another 'camp', except just as an educational visit, as what they have already is functional and ongoing valid Vinaya. Is Rinpoche implying that the Mulasarvastivadin monastics are not on par with their Theravadin 'cousins', in terms of Vinaya letter or practice?

Perhaps, the practice part? What they may want to look at are perhaps ongoing stuff like how strictly do they maintain the Vinaya and the many 'concessions' made under the additional superceding Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows/Precepts...


Well, the thing is that when tibetans adopted monastic system, they had to make compromises here and there, because of the society and harsh enviroment. For example, daily dana-rally had to be changed to one big alms-round in autumn, just after when barley was harvested. This way they filled their supplies for the winter. In Thailand, it's pretty much the same what Siddhartha and fellows practiced in India at ancient times.

And what comes to Tantric vows, it's really a shamefur dispray for tibetan buddhist: if one has taken vinaya, one must follow it, no matter what. Lamas are also quite strict about this. However, some become disillusioned with tantric vows and use them as an excuse to do whatever they want (display whole variety of attachments) instead of using it as method to get free from judgements during meditation. Add some more cultish groups to that and you have can of worms ready to be opened. So, I guess, yes. And what comes to consorts, monks are not allowed to have them, no matter what some crazies might say, in tibetan buddhist tradition, just like in Theravadan. However, to be a lama, you don't necessarily have to be a monk/nun. And just like every other laypeople out there, they're free to have girlfriends.

It is my understanding that the actual vinaya itself was not changed in tibet, but practices (as have happened in the west) were altered so that it was practicable while still within the rule.
I have only seen a comparison of the vinaya used in China so if you know of a comparison between the pali and tibetan vinayas I would be interested.
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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:06 pm

Cittasanto wrote:a comparison between the pali and tibetan vinayas I would be interested.


It'd be a Mulasarvastivada - Theravada Vinayapitaka comparison, basically. Here are some related works; I'm unaware of any large-scale comparative analyses (or really, of even small-scale ones), but these may be pertinent:

Managing Monks: Administrators and Administrative Roles in Indian Buddhist Monasticism by Jonathan A. Silk

Buddhist monastic discipline: the Sanskrit Prātimokṣa sūtras of the Mahāsāṃghikas and Mūlasarvāstivādins by Charles S. Prebish
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:13 pm

Cittasanto wrote:...if you know of a comparison between the pali and tibetan vinayas I would be interested.


New Kadampa doesn't consider itself Tibetan, but here it is. They have completely erased whatever vinaya and pratimoksha the Tibetan lineages were using, and replaced it with these ten commitments:

" Throughout my life I will abandon killing, stealing, lying or cheating, sexual activity, taking intoxicants and engaging in meaningless activities. I will practice contentment, reduce my desire for worldly pleasures, maintain the commitments of refuge, and practice the three trainings of moral discipline, concentration and wisdom."

I've read in their scripture, by Buddha Kelsang Gyatso, that they still recognize the five anantarika-kamma (i.e, creating a schism in the sangha is as bad as killing an arahant). This might indicate changed meanings in their vow content.

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:40 pm

daverupa wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:a comparison between the pali and tibetan vinayas I would be interested.


It'd be a Mulasarvastivada - Theravada Vinayapitaka comparison, basically. Here are some related works; I'm unaware of any large-scale comparative analyses (or really, of even small-scale ones), but these may be pertinent:

Managing Monks: Administrators and Administrative Roles in Indian Buddhist Monasticism by Jonathan A. Silk

Buddhist monastic discipline: the Sanskrit Prātimokṣa sūtras of the Mahāsāṃghikas and Mūlasarvāstivādins by Charles S. Prebish

Not so much an analysis rather a simple spot the difference similarities between, similar to this http://cittasanto.weebly.com/7/post/201 ... cepts.html
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:44 pm

Hi Lojong,
I am asking about the vinaya used by Bhiksus.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:47 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Lojong,
I am asking about the vinaya used by Bhiksus.

Yes, that is all it takes to become a monk/nun these days...or what have I missed?

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:52 pm

lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi Lojong,
I am asking about the vinaya used by Bhiksus.

Yes, that is all it takes to become a monk/nun these days...or what have I missed?

They may be considered monks or nuns but not Bhikkhus/Bhikkhuni. They can not take part in Sangha-Kamma or anything a Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni can.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:56 pm

Cittasanto wrote:They may be considered monks or nuns but not Bhikkhus/Bhikkhuni. They can not take part in Sangha-Kamma or anything a Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni can.

Verily I tell thee, their buddha disagrees.

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:01 pm

lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:They may be considered monks or nuns but not Bhikkhus/Bhikkhuni. They can not take part in Sangha-Kamma or anything a Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni can.

Verily I tell thee, their buddha disagrees.

theirs can all he wants, the Vinaya trumps him in this regard.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:07 pm

from newkadampatruth.org:

"Smear: NKT ordination is not valid
Truth: Because the system of ordination in the NKT follows Buddha Shakyamuni’s teachings on ordination interpreted by Geshe Potowa (1031-1106), and this contains the essential meaning of all ordination, it is entirely valid.

It is important to understand the essential meaning of ordination before judging whether NKT ordination is valid or not. Just because it is different from the Tibetan tradition doesn't make it invalid.

At the present time the NKT-IKBU has about 700 ordained people around the world. The way of granting ordination was designed by Geshe Kelsang following the ancient Kadampa tradition. It is very simple and very practical.

The definition of ordination vow is a special moral discipline motivated by renunciation and received by means of a ritual practice given by an Ordaining Preceptor. This is true for all traditions of ordination in Buddhism. The aspect of the ordination may change in accordance with the conventions of society but, for as long as the essential meaning of ordination is maintained, it is entirely valid.

The real meaning of ordination is to develop the mind of renunciation (the wish for liberation from samsara's suffering) and then to practice the actual method for attaining liberation, which is called “the three higher trainings” – the practices of higher moral discipline, higher concentration and higher wisdom, until liberation or nirvana is achieved.

Traditionally, Tibetan Buddhism follows the Vinaya Sutra, which comes from the Hinayana tradition. In the system of Tibetan Buddhism, the level of ordination is determined by the number of vows. Someone is a fully ordained monk if they hold 253 vows, or a fully ordained nun if they hold 364 vows. (There is no longer any tradition for full ordination for women in the Tibetan tradition and so Tibetan Buddhist nuns are secondary to monks.)

The NKT ordination follows the tradition of ordination explained by Geshe Potowa and other Kadampa Geshes. According to this system, it is the level of renunciation that determines the level of ordination, not how many vows you hold. In NKT ordination, a monk or a nun becomes 'fully ordained' (Gelong or Bhikshu (monk), Gelongma or Bhikshuni (nun)) by holding the ten vows of ordination and having developed the realization of renunciation, that is, having developed the spontaneous wish for liberation such that it is ever-present in the mind, day and night.

The essence of the ten ordination vows of a Kadampa monk or nun is the condensation of all the vows of a fully ordained monk or nun contained in the Vinaya Sutra. The ten ordination vows are derived from a different teaching of Buddha, a Mahayana Sutra called The Perfection of Wisdom Sutra. The vows are very practical, compatible with the norms of Western society and can easily be integrated into daily spiritual practice. Moreover, monks and nuns are equal; there is no discrimination against nuns.

For more information on ordination in the New Kadampa Tradition, please see the following two articles explaining the nature and function of NKT ordination and the authenticity of its lineage. There you will find the listing of all 253 vows of a fully ordained monk and see how they are not contradictory to the ten vows taken and kept by a monk or a nun in the New Kadampa Tradition.
"

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:10 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:They may be considered monks or nuns but not Bhikkhus/Bhikkhuni. They can not take part in Sangha-Kamma or anything a Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni can.

Verily I tell thee, their buddha disagrees.

theirs can all he wants, the Vinaya trumps him in this regard.


May this long remain true. They have taken over this city and are spreading quickly. Dorje Shugden is the least of our worries.

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:24 pm

lojong1 wrote:May this long remain true. They have taken over this city and are spreading quickly. Dorje Shugden is the least of our worries.

It looks like a lay-ordination not a Vinaya ordination. doesn't mean it isn't valid in it's aim, but invalid non-the-less regarding whether they are Bhikkhus or Bhikkhunis.
I do not fully know who that dorje shugden is but as Theravada has nothing to do with it I need not care about it.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:45 pm

Cittasanto wrote:It looks like a lay-ordination not a Vinaya ordination.

That's why I'm repeating, because it is so strange, and I want to be sure you understand me -- these ten commitments are their entire Vinaya! It is the most popular version of the vinaya/pratimoksha in this area. Your view, the one I like, is the minority here.

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Re: Theravada or Root-yana, whatever?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:01 pm

lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:It looks like a lay-ordination not a Vinaya ordination.

That's why I'm repeating, because it is so strange, and I want to be sure you understand me -- these ten commitments are their entire Vinaya! It is the most popular version of the vinaya/pratimoksha in this area. Your view, the one I like, is the minority here.

popularity is not a guage for much other than popularity. Fortunately the Buddha didn't go with what was popular and went the hard road to find the truth.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."


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