U.S. to deport Thai monk for being "remunerated"

[Individual]

It's a pretty stupid situation. For instance, it's peculiar that immigration law would actually discourage visitors from getting jobs. Having a job contributes to the overall well-being of the economy and society, so even if this monk actually had a real job, would that be a bad thing? Immigration laws are really such outdated racist policies, which today are supported by xenophobia and ignorance of economics.

I hope the monk gets to stay in America, but if he doesn't, nobody, especially the monk, should be bitter or disappointed, because -- what else should you expect? If there are lots of silly laws and regulators, things like this will happen.

Also, what's special about America? Aren't there countless human beings that are unhappy, countless places to spread peace and harmony? Why America?

[DNS]

It's the immigrants coming to America and taking those jobs away that American born citizens love to do, such as:

Waiting at the side of the freeways to sell pottery
Waiting at the side of the freeways to sell fruit
Picking the fruit from the fields in extreme heat for sub-minimum wage pay
Working in restaurants as dishwashers and bus boys for sub-minimum wage pay
Working in monasteries, required to be celibate, no entertainment, and doing community service for no pay

(in case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.)

The immigrants do the work that the 'native' populations can't do or don't want to do. They also provide skills that are in short supply, such as doctors, nurses, etc. But even if they didn't, there should still be compassion for all.

[Individual]

It's the immigrants coming to America and taking those jobs away that American born citizens love to do, such as:

Waiting at the side of the freeways to sell pottery
Waiting at the side of the freeways to sell fruit
Picking the fruit from the fields in extreme heat for sub-minimum wage pay
Working in restaurants as dishwashers and bus boys for sub-minimum wage pay
Working in monasteries, required to be celibate, no entertainment, and doing community service for no pay

(in case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.)

The immigrants do the work that the 'native' populations can't do or don't want to do. They also provide skills that are in short supply, such as doctors, nurses, etc. But even if they didn't, there should still be compassion for all.

I don't think that's totally fair, because there are a small minority of Americans that would do those jobs, being in the same boat as the immigrants. Americans are generally wealthier than immigrants, but not always. For people that already do such jobs, in the short-run immigration would depress their wages.

[rosuto]

No human being is illegal.

But it is illegal for people to be in certain places govern they should not be.

It's the immigrants coming to America and taking those jobs away that American born citizens love to do, such as:

Waiting at the side of the freeways to sell pottery
Waiting at the side of the freeways to sell fruit
Picking the fruit from the fields in extreme heat for sub-minimum wage pay
Working in restaurants as dishwashers and bus boys for sub-minimum wage pay
Working in monasteries, required to be celibate, no entertainment, and doing community service for no pay

(in case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.)

The immigrants do the work that the 'native' populations can't do or don't want to do. They also provide skills that are in short supply, such as doctors, nurses, etc. But even if they didn't, there should still be compassion for all.

See, but you actually prove my point more. Selling stuff on the side of the road, illegal. Working for less than minimum wage, illegal for employer to do. Those sub minimum wage jobs wouldn't exist if there wasn't the people here illegally to work them. Employers would have to actually pay the right wage, and provide the right services and such to their employees. There is always so much talk about the exploitation, but it is self created and imposed. I, personally, would love for some of those jobs to be open in my area. Then I could get back to work, instead of being shot down at job after job.

[DNS]

Working for less than minimum wage, illegal for employer to do.

Actually, it is not illegal in most instances. The U.S. government allows migrant farm workers to be paid less than minimum wage, thus, it is legal to pay them those low wages.

The government also allows certain jobs which rely heavily on tips, such as waiters and bus boys, to be paid less than minimum wage, with the thinking that the tips will push the pay to the minimum or higher.

Everything is either legal or illegal, but that in itself, does not necessarily make it right or wrong. For example, slavery was legal at one time, but that didn't make it "right."

Sorry to hear of your unemployment. Good luck with your job search.

[Jechbi]

rosuto,

I, personally, would love for some of those jobs to be open in my area. Then I could get back to work, instead of being shot down at job after job.

While I sympathize with your employment problems, I feel you simply do not understand the gravity of the statements you have made in this thread. Namely, these statements (with emphasis added) are the most [edited] objectionable words I've ever seen posted on Dhamma Wheel:

... the placating of those whose very act of breathing breaks the law is beyond me.
... They chose to have a child here illegally.

To say a group of people breaks the law by their "very act of breathing" echoes the propoganda of a certain Vernichtungspolitik we know all too well. Why is it that you do not want undocumented immigrants to breath?

Likewise, the political position that a certain segment of the population should not be allowed to have children echoes a horrifying policy of forced sterilization that has been applied in many cultures in modern history, including in the United States.

The most current proposal for amnesty in U.S. immigration policy discussions is to offer illegal immigrants a chance to pay a fine or fee in order to apply for legal status, assuming the immigrants meet certain guidelines such as not being convicted felons. This is a far cry from offering free amnesty to anyone. Some people (such as yourself) are trying to twist the public debate in order to paint the current proposals as some kind of free amnesty for anyone. That's just dishonest.

Everybody agrees that U.S. immigration policy is broken and does not work. In some cases, the enforcement of U.S. immigration law can be likened to Sharia, a legal system in which the penalty can be inhumane. For example, under Sharia, a thief might have his hand cut off. Does the punishment fit the crime?

Likewise, the enforcement of U.S. immigration policy in some cases imposes enormously harsh penalties for relatively minor infractions. We are talking about children being separated from their parents, families split up, due to incorrect paperwork being filed with a bureaucracy. It's insane.

For your information, my wife was not a U.S. citizen when I met her. She was in the United States on a student visa and had no intention of staying. When we decided to get married, we saw an attorney. One option we had was to forget about marriage. The other option was to take our chances with U.S. immigration law. So my wife overstayed her student visa while we got married and filed the paperwork for her to become a permanent legal resident. It took more than five years.

During that time, there were periods when my wife was technically deportable. We also had a baby together after we were married, but before her permanent residency status was approved. During that time, technically the U.S. government could have ordered my wife to leave her U.S.-born child (my son) behind unless we all decided to leave the United States together. (That means two U.S. citizens would have to leave the country because the U.S. government would not allow the spouse of one U.S. citizen to stay.)

Fortunately we are educated people of means, so we had good legal representation. Today, my wife is a U.S. citizen. But understand this: There are plenty of real human beings out there with equally valid reasons to stay in the U.S., but because they lack education, because they lack money and legal counsel, they get deported. This is a class issue. Many of the "illegal immigrants" that so many middle-class Americans despise are working-class people who are "illegal" only because the U.S. immigration system is broken.

So when you say that some people "by their very act of breathing" are breaking the law, you are saying that my wife should not have been allowed to breath, because for a while (under the advice of legal counsel), she was undocumented. And when you say that some people should not have children, you are saying that I should not have my son. What my wife and I did to become a family was, in the end, legally acceptable to the U.S. government. We are lucky.

I personally know loving, caring "illegal immigrants" who pay taxes, contribute to society, are the parents of U.S. citizens, etc. You can find such people easily: For example, look to the farm fields where your food is grown. Throughout the United States, food growers have an economic stake in helping to enact a sane U.S. immigration policy. Fixing the U.S. immigration policy is a national-security issue if for the sole reason of securing a reliable supply of food. A significant portion of the U.S. economy is built on labor that, in virtually any other nation on Earth, would be legal. But somehow, the U.S. has messed up its immigration policy to such an extent that a huge portion of its labor pool is illegal. That's crazy.

Immigration cases are complex, and each family has its own story. I'm so saddened when I hear middle-class Americans lump all "illegal immigrants" into the same basket and label them all criminals. This attitude is so much full of greed, hate and delusion.


metta

edited: to fix broken coding, and restore a reference to the quotes that elicited this post.

[DNS]

Admin./moderator note:

Please keep all posts to the topic at hand. Immigration is a contentious issue and often charged with emotion. Please do not make accusations about mindstates of others here or in any other thread.

Thanks.

[Jechbi]

Apologies that in editing my previous post to restore coding, the following note was inadvertantly deleted:

Last edited by TheDhamma on Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: words that might be perceived as personal attacks removed.

Nevertheless, this does not adequately explain why some portions of my post were deleted by admin/mod action.

If a person in all seriousness states that:
(1) It is illegal for a certain kind of person to breathe; and
(2) It is illegal for a certain kind of person to have children;
then those statements ought to be challenged in the strongest terms, in my opinion.

Those statements imply an utter rejection of the humanity of the individuals involved. During the Nazi era, statements like that were applied to the Jews. Here at Dhamma Wheel, they have now been applied to undocumented U.S. immigrants. It is for the person who made those statements to examine his own mindstate.

One thing that was deleted from my post: I feel that these two statements are the most objectionable statements ever posted on the Dhamma Wheel board. I used a different adjective than "objectionable" in my original post, and it did indeed relate to the teachings of lobha, dosa and moha. That is how I see these statements. I'm starting this related thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1756" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since this thread has been hijacked by rosuto and twisted away from its intended purpose, I ask that it be closed.

Metta

[DNS]

Hi Jechbi,

You already have made several good points and as you can tell from my posts, I am in full agreement with you on this issue. But we can make our points without accusing another of possessing the mindstate of hate. We already have enough valid points on our side without resorting to that type of speech, often used by those on the other side of this issue.

Make points against the message, not the messenger, as the saying goes.

[Jechbi]

Thank you, I agree with you.

I'd like the thread to be closed if you feel that is appropriate.