what gets reborn

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what gets reborn

Postby Billymac29 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:51 pm

If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

with metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:52 am

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Consciousness is the what. Although it is not one consciousness but rather one moment or event of consciousness conditions the next. However, consciousness is not self because it is impermanent and unsatisfactory. If consciousness were self then self would arise and pass away thousands of times a day.

EDIT: Craving is the sustenance for consciousness to continue and kamma provides the field or range of possibilities for consciousness to re-arise in some other realm. Not saying I believe all that just that if you read the suttas this is what they point to.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:10 am

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby SDC » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:16 am

Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

with metta


I heard a monk explain death and rebirth by comparing it to faxing a document.

Is the document that was sent from one machine identical to the one that was received in the other? Yes.

But is the document that was received the one that was sent? No.
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:25 am

SDC wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

with metta


I heard a monk explain death and rebirth by comparing it to faxing a document.

Is the document that was sent from one machine identical to the one that was received in the other? Yes.

But is the document that was received the one that was sent? No.

Another way to think of it is a billiard ball hitting another ball - nothing is transferred except direction and speed.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ebirth.pdf
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby SDC » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:33 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Another way to think of it is a billiard ball hitting another ball - nothing is transferred except direction and speed.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ebirth.pdf


Nice. I like that one.
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:21 am

Why assume that something of individual consciousness cant extend over multiple physical lifetimes? Where does your consciousness go when you sleep? What if you slept permanently, as whom would you awaken?
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby nibbuti » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:36 am

Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

Hi Billy. No 'candles', 'balls', 'streams' and personalities. It is only ignorance and desire that actually is born again and dies. More thorough explanation here.

:redherring:
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby plwk » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:56 am

what actually is reborn at death???????
In the words of someone infamous, (depends on who you're asking...), just this: neurosis
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby pegembara » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:04 am

“He who is reborn, Nāgasena, is he the same person or another?”
“Neither the same nor another.”

“What is it, Nāgasena, that is reborn?”
“Mind and matter.”

“Is it this very mind and matter that is reborn?”
“No, it is not, but by this mind and matter deeds are done and because of those deeds another mind and matter is reborn; but that mind and matter is not thereby released from the results of its previous deeds.”

“Give me an illustration.”
“It is like a fire that a man might kindle and, having warmed himself, he might leave it burning and go away. Then if that fire were to set light to another man’s field and the owner were to seize him and accuse him before the king, and he were to say, ‘Your majesty, I did not set this man’s field on fire. The fire that I left burning was different to that which burnt his field. I am not guilty.’ Would he deserve punishment?”

“Indeed, yes, because whatever he might say the latter fire resulted from the former one.”
“Just so, O king, by this mind and matter deeds are done and because of those deeds another mind and matter is reborn; but that mind and matter is not thereby released from the results of its previous deeds.”

Milindapanha


In fact rebirth may not be accurate. Every moment there is an arising or birth followed by death/cessation. So there is birth/death/birth/death etc. There is no thing to be re-born or no re anything.
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby Raitanator » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:56 am

The falsely existing ego, which is labelled as ignorance in twelve nidanas. When we realise experiantally that it was like a dream, then there's nothing to reborn anymore. I guess.

What do you guys think?
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:29 pm

so if i die... say something goes to a ghost realm or animal realm.. its not "me" going anywhere but my desires and cravings? or is it my conscious?
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby SDC » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:48 pm

Billymac29 wrote:so if i die... say something goes to a ghost realm or animal realm.. its not "me" going anywhere but my desires and cravings? or is it my conscious?


Sort of...I guess (this is mere speculation)...what is happening here will continue to happen somewhere else.
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:56 pm

Billymac29 wrote:so if i die... say something goes to a ghost realm or animal realm.. its not "me" going anywhere but my desires and cravings? or is it my conscious?

But it's not "you" here right now. There is no "you"; there's just a process. That process continues. There will be experience, and on the conventional level, you might say that "you" experience it, but in reality there's only the five aggregates, dying and being reborn every moment.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby SDC » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:04 pm

LY with the evil post count :tongue:

EDIT - HA! and mine's 555
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby SarathW » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:54 pm

I think it is wrong to say it is like faxing a document or like a billiard ball hitting another. The best I can think is lighting a candle with another candle.
Nothing transfered but the condition of the first candle, lighted the second candle.
The best way to find out this yourself is to see how a new thought moment is born. It is the vibration of Bhava consiousness due to external factors (ie. Eye consiousness)
I am not sure on any of these yet. So read, chapter 29:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby pegembara » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:05 am

Billymac29 wrote:so if i die... say something goes to a ghost realm or animal realm.. its not "me" going anywhere but my desires and cravings? or is it my conscious?


Consider this. Is it that which was was born so many years ago really you?

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Re: what gets reborn

Postby ground » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:24 am

Patience! Everyone will experience death. No need to speculate beforehand. :sage:
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby Jason » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:24 am

Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?


Here's my answer from a similar thread a while back if you're interested:

    The question often arises, If Buddhism doesn't posit a self or soul, what gets reborn? From the Theravadin point of view (or at least from the point of view of those in Theravada who accept the idea of postmortem rebirth), rebirth is viewed as the continuation of a process—nothing 'remains,' nothing 'transmigrates,' there are merely fleeting phenomena that condition other fleeting phenomena in the interdependent process we call life.

    One way to look at it is that a casual process can be self-sustaining, with causes creating effects, and effect acting as causes, creating feedback loops. And if you admit the possibility of immaterial causes and not just material ones (assuming that a clear distinction between the two can even be made), then the continuation of said process isn't limited by or to a single material body. And if you believe Bertrand Russell, the more we understand about matter (i.e., energy), the more the word itself becomes "no more than a conventional shorthand for stating causal laws concerning events" (An Outline of Philosophy).

    Here, consciousness isn't seen as a static things going from life to life, but simply as one link or event in a complex causal chain, i.e., moments of consciousness arising and ceasing in rapid succession, with the last moment of consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditioning the arising of a new moment of consciousness due to the presence of craving (kind of like 'spooky action at a distance' where two entangled particles communicate with each other instantaneously, even over great distances). It's almost better to think of it as a transmission of information rather than the transmigration of some thing.

    Thus, in Buddhism, there can theoretically be continuity between lives without having to posit some type of permanent, unchanging consciousness or soul that travels from life to life. That's why the Pali term vinnanasota or 'stream of consciousness' is often used to describe the flow of conscious events, even when presented within the context of rebirth. (Similarly with terms like bhavangasota (stream of becoming), found in Snp 3.12, and samvattanikamvinnanam (evolving consciousness), found in MN 106.)

    Unfortunately, there are no suttas that give a detailed explanation of this process, and the detailed workings of this process are to be found in the Abhidhamma and Pali commentaries. While many people reject the Abhidhamma and commentaries as reliable sources of information regarding what the Buddha taught, I don't think the views of the Buddha and the ancient commentators such as Buddhaghosa are necessarily mutually exclusive.

    As for the teachings on not-self (anatta), the basic idea is that whatever is inconstant (anicca) is stressful (dukkha), and whatever is stressful is not-self, since whatever is inconstant, subject to change, and not fully under our control isn't fit to be called 'me' or 'mine' (SN 22.59). Practically speaking, to hold onto anything that's inconstant, subject to change, break-up and dissolution as self is a cause for mental stress and suffering; therefore, the teachings on not-self are designed to help one let go of what isn't self (i.e., the five aggregates) in order to free the mind from the suffering engendered by clinging to ephemeral phenomena.
Last edited by Jason on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what gets reborn

Postby convivium » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:29 am

where does consciousness come from, by the view of the suttas? you could explain it by way of dependent origination, but doesn't ignorance presuppose consciousness? is it something that comes from the biology? could there be consciousness without a biological foundation?
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