Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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rachmiel
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Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by rachmiel »

In Advaita Vedanta, pure awareness (brahman) is considered to be the ultimate, unchanging, eternal substrate of reality.

In Buddhism, consciousness (vijnana) is considered to be one of the five skandhas, thus empty of independent existence.

My questions:

Are Advaita and Buddhism talking about the same thing here -- i.e. does pure awareness = vijnana -- but interpreting this thing radically differently?

Is there a Buddhist equivalent to Advaita's pure awareness / brahman? Is there any ultimate substrate/reality in Buddhism? Or does Buddhism see "what is" as just a buncha ever-changing impermanent stuff in a grand web of inter-dependence?

Thanks,

rachMiel
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Because Advaita Vedānta is later development than contemporary to the Buddha, there is no reason to compare it to the Nikāyan period.

However, there is no equivalent to the Brahman-Absolute of the Upaniṣads in the Nikāyas. In fact, the Buddha was very clearly pushing back at the Upaniṣadic Ātman theory throughout his teaching career. The Buddha’s answer to a Brahman-ātman life-force dynamic was to deconstruct the assumptions of continuum with personhood, with the framework dependent origination (paṭiccasamuppāda) of the five bases [subject to] identification (pañcupādānakkhandhā), and reconstruct the aspirant toward liberating knowledge through direct knowledge of conditional sensate and cognitive processes.
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rachmiel
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by rachmiel »

Thanks, ancientbuddhism.

A followup:

Does Buddhism say "There is no ultimate reality, no brahman" or "It's of no use to speculate about ultimate reality, because it's unknowable." The first shuts out the possibility of brahman, the second doesn't.
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by ancientbuddhism »

rachmiel wrote:Does Buddhism say "There is no ultimate reality, no brahman" or "It's of no use to speculate about ultimate reality, because it's unknowable." The first shuts out the possibility of brahman, the second doesn't.
An ontological ‘ultimate’ is flat-out rejected throughout the Nikāyas, especially in the Alagaddūpama Sutta where the Buddha outright mocked the brāhmaṇa doctrine of ātman as a ‘doctrine of fools’ (bāladhammo), translated by Nyanaponika Thera as a 'foolish idea'.

Norman discusses this nicely in A Note on Attā in the Alagaddūpama Sutta.

Also see Anattā: A Different Approach, By Sue Hamilton
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by huanvuong »

Actually no matter whether it is Buddhism or Advaita Vedanta, both systems talk about the same. In Buddhism we talk about consciousness, but we also talk about awareness. Pure awareness in Buddhism is called Buddha nature. It is said that every living being has Buddha nature. This nature is Pure Awareness, and nothing else is beyond it. It has never been born, will never die and no one can ever hurt or harm it. It is everlasting, it is empty of all conceptual existence and witnessing everything that goes by without becoming an object or subject to the world of phenomena or change.

Consciousness contrary is not awareness, it is only an outwardly just a manifestation of awareness. This manifestation has its cause in ignorance and false view. It exists wherever duality exists. Actually it is the creator of dualistic world, the world of concept, of black and white, of you and me...etc. It is the filter of separation.

So in Buddhism the concept of consciousness is somewhat defined differently than what normal people used to understand what consciousness is.

Actually if we read closely at the sutra with some meditative insight, we'll discover that Buddha had never reject the understanding of Brahman as pure consciousness or Atman as the individual mindfulness. The only rejection Buddha wanted to point out was the conceptual understanding and grasping at the experience Truth. Most people miss that point when they read the Words of Buddha. Buddha's only purpose and goal was to cut through all conceptual understanding and labeling at things. This was the point of the Buddha's Essential Teaching.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Sam Vara »

huanvuong wrote:Actually no matter whether it is Buddhism or Advaita Vedanta, both systems talk about the same. In Buddhism we talk about consciousness, but we also talk about awareness. Pure awareness in Buddhism is called Buddha nature. It is said that every living being has Buddha nature. This nature is Pure Awareness, and nothing else is beyond it. It has never been born, will never die and no one can ever hurt or harm it. It is everlasting, it is empty of all conceptual existence and witnessing everything that goes by without becoming an object or subject to the world of phenomena or change.
This is interesting, but can you provide evidence of the Buddha saying this?
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Judai »

ancientbuddhism wrote:
rachmiel wrote:Does Buddhism say "There is no ultimate reality, no brahman" or "It's of no use to speculate about ultimate reality, because it's unknowable." The first shuts out the possibility of brahman, the second doesn't.
An ontological ‘ultimate’ is flat-out rejected throughout the Nikāyas, especially in the Alagaddūpama Sutta where the Buddha outright mocked the brāhmaṇa doctrine of ātman as a ‘doctrine of fools’ (bāladhammo), translated by Nyanaponika Thera as a 'foolish idea'.

Norman discusses this nicely in A Note on Attā in the Alagaddūpama Sutta.

Also see Anattā: A Different Approach, By Sue Hamilton
I wouldn't be to quick to say the Buddha mocked the doctrine of Atman
It would seem he mocked the Idea that the self was in the 5 aggregates,for if the self was in the 5 aggregates it would not lead to suffering.

to be brutally honest It seemed to me the Buddha was mocking the the doctrine of no self.

SN 22.46 Impermanent (2) pg 885
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, form is impermanent.... Feeling is impermanent.... Preception is impermanent.... Volitional formations are impermanent.... Consciousness is impermanent. What is Impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self."
SN 22.68 "Bhikkhu you should abandon desire for whatever is non self"
SN:22.69 "Bhikkhu,you should abandon desire for whatever does not belong to self."

SN 22.59
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic
Thus it was heard by me. At one time the Blessed One was living in the deer park of Isipatana near Benares. There, indeed, the Blessed One addressed the group of five monks.
"Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to suffering and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'
"Feeling, O monks, is not-self; if feeling were self, then feeling would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since feeling is not-self, therefore feeling leads to suffering and it does not obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus.'
"Perception, O monks, is not-self; if perception were self, then perception would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding perception: 'May my perception be thus, may my perception not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since perception is not-self, therefore, perception leads to suffering and it does not obtain regarding perception: 'May my perception be thus, may my perception not be thus.'
"Mental formations, O monks, are not-self; if mental formations were self, then mental formations would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my perception be thus, may my mental formations not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since mental formations are not-self, therefore, mental formations lead to suffering and it does not obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my mental formations be thus, may my mental formations not be thus.'
"Consciousness, O monks, is not-self; if consciousness were self, then consciousness would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since consciousness is not-self, therefore, consciousness leads to suffering and it does not obtain regarding consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus.'
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Judai »

huanvuong wrote:Actually no matter whether it is Buddhism or Advaita Vedanta, both systems talk about the same. In Buddhism we talk about consciousness, but we also talk about awareness. Pure awareness in Buddhism is called Buddha nature. It is said that every living being has Buddha nature. This nature is Pure Awareness, and nothing else is beyond it. It has never been born, will never die and no one can ever hurt or harm it. It is everlasting, it is empty of all conceptual existence and witnessing everything that goes by without becoming an object or subject to the world of phenomena or change.
The Buddha Nature is not spoke of in the Nikayas

the terms you are using however can be found in the Nikayas
unborn,everlasting,unconditioned. as descriptions of Nibbana
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Aloka »

huanvuong wrote: Pure awareness in Buddhism is called Buddha nature. It is said that every living being has Buddha nature.
Hi

This is a Mahayana/Vajrayana concept and the Buddha himself didn't speak about "Buddha nature".

You might like to read "Freedom from Buddha Nature" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ature.html

With kind wishes,

Aloka
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Judai »

Aloka wrote:
huanvuong wrote: Pure awareness in Buddhism is called Buddha nature. It is said that every living being has Buddha nature.
Hi

This is a Mahayana/Vajrayana concept and the Buddha himself didn't speak about "Buddha nature".

You might like to read "Freedom from Buddha Nature" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ature.html

With kind wishes,

Aloka
I wouldn't go that far either to say the Buddha himself didn't speak about the "Buddha nature"

nobody knows exactly what the Buddha said we were not there.
all we can go on is carbon dating and as far as carbon dating goes Buddha nature sutras were found with Nikaya suttas in the Gandhara scrolls(oldest dated Buddhist texts in existence)
as far as actual evidence goes both texts are of equal dating
also Both the Nikaya and Mahayana texts were written down at the same time period. and both claim to have an oral tradition directly passed down till they were put into writing.

the who is "more authentic" thing is mostly sectritarian talk. than actual facts.
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Aloka »

Judai wrote:
Aloka wrote:
huanvuong wrote: Pure awareness in Buddhism is called Buddha nature. It is said that every living being has Buddha nature.
Hi

This is a Mahayana/Vajrayana concept and the Buddha himself didn't speak about "Buddha nature".

You might like to read "Freedom from Buddha Nature" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ature.html

With kind wishes,

Aloka
I wouldn't go that far either to say the Buddha himself didn't speak about the "Buddha nature"

nobody knows exactly what the Buddha said we were not there.
all we can go on is carbon dating and as far as carbon dating goes Buddha nature sutras were found with Nikaya suttas in the Gandhara scrolls(oldest dated Buddhist texts in existence)
as far as actual evidence goes both texts are of equal dating
also Both the Nikaya and Mahayana texts were written down at the same time period. and both claim to have an oral tradition directly passed down till they were put into writing.

the who is "more authentic" thing is mostly sectritarian talk. than actual facts.
Did you read the Thanissaro Bhikkhu article ? He is one of the translators of the Pali Canon suttas.

I also seem to remember reading somewhere that the Nikayas were written down about 200 years before the Gandhara scrolls.

There's also nothing sectarian about getting the facts right about Mahayana being a later development !

:)



.
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Judai
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Judai »

Aloka wrote: Did you read the Thanissaro Bhikkhu article ? He is one of the translators of the Pali Canon suttas.
translating pali suttas doesn't change the fact
the oldest carbon dated Buddhist texts are Buddha nature sutras and the Anguttara Nikaya
(along with some other pali suttas and Mahayana sutra mixtures)
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Aloka »

Judai wrote:
Aloka wrote: Did you read the Thanissaro Bhikkhu article ? He is one of the translators of the Pali Canon suttas.
translating pali suttas doesn't change the fact...etc
So you didn't bother to read the article then.

I'm really not interested in continuing this conversation any further, its past my bedtime.

Goodnight. :zzz:
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by SarathW »

Aloka wrote:
huanvuong wrote: Pure awareness in Buddhism is called Buddha nature. It is said that every living being has Buddha nature.
Hi

This is a Mahayana/Vajrayana concept and the Buddha himself didn't speak about "Buddha nature".

You might like to read "Freedom from Buddha Nature" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ature.html

With kind wishes,

Aloka
Hi Aloka
Thanks for the link :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Judai
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Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality

Post by Judai »

Aloka wrote:
Judai wrote:
Aloka wrote: Did you read the Thanissaro Bhikkhu article ? He is one of the translators of the Pali Canon suttas.
translating pali suttas doesn't change the fact...etc
So you didn't bother to read the article then.

I'm really not interested in continuing this conversation any further, its past my bedtime.

Goodnight. :zzz:
Yes I read the article and again it doesnt change the fact the oldest known carbon dated Buddhist texts in existence is the AN and some Buddha nature sutras from the Gandhara scrolls.

As far as the Nikayas being written down 200 years before the Gandhara scrolls,this is simply incorrect,there is no proof for this.(is there a carbon dated text that is 200 yrs older than the Gandhara scrolls? Or is this anouther baseless claim?)
That is simply a claim and it is no different than the baseless claims many Mahayanists make.
(just because someone makes the claim it was written then doesnt make it true)

What I am talking about is actual hands on proof,not claims,hearsay,guesses...ect
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