help me understand how consciousness is not self

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alan...
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help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

i understand the other four groups of grasping no problem:

(1) corporeality, (2) feeling, (3) perception, (4) mental formations

and i get , (5) consciousness provisionally but not deeply.

as far as i can tell consciousness is not self because: it is always changing, you cannot force it to remain the same and it stops and starts.

mindfulness makes it easy to see the not self of all the other groups but the very mindfulness being used seems to be a "self" kind of consciousness. obviously it is not actually a self. please explain in depth how consciousness is not self.
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retrofuturist
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Remember to think here of consciousness in terms of the six-consciousnesses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Remember to think here of consciousness in terms of the six-consciousnesses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
retro you just blew my mind! i had been thinking in terms of western psychological idea of consciousness. not in the buddhist six consciousnesses! this solves everything!!! thanks!
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mikenz66
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alan,

I thought you might be referring to citta (as in the "mood" sense of the third satipatthana) rather than the consciousness aggregate or the sense doors. As I understand it, citta is often the most difficult thing to see as anatta, since, especially under meditation conditions, it can be quite stable (whereas sensations, thoughts, etc, can be seen to rise and fall very rapidly). So it is easy to mistake the "calm meditative mind" as some sort of "true self".

I think Ajahn Brahm mentions this in Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond, but it's a reasonably common observation, and something you can explore yourself.

:anjali:
Mike
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Cittasanto
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by Cittasanto »

Remember the Dependent Origination sequence. Consciousness is part of a process.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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retrofuturist
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan...
alan... wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Remember to think here of consciousness in terms of the six-consciousnesses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
retro you just blew my mind! i had been thinking in terms of western psychological idea of consciousness. not in the buddhist six consciousnesses! this solves everything!!! thanks!
Right, and now you've done that... see if you can find the "western psychological idea of consciousness" anywhere independently of the five aggregates.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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kirk5a
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by kirk5a »

MN147:
"What do you think — whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the [eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, intellect] as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: Is it constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Seeing thus, Rahula, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.

"He grows disenchanted with the ear...

"He grows disenchanted with the nose...

"He grows disenchanted with the tongue...

"He grows disenchanted with the body...

"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is depleted, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by tiltbillings »

alan... wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Remember to think here of consciousness in terms of the six-consciousnesses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
retro you just blew my mind! i had been thinking in terms of western psychological idea of consciousness. not in the buddhist six consciousnesses! this solves everything!!! thanks!
Depends upon which Western pyschological idea of consciousness you are pointing to. Some are quite process oriented.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Alan,

I thought you might be referring to citta (as in the "mood" sense of the third satipatthana) rather than the consciousness aggregate or the sense doors. As I understand it, citta is often the most difficult thing to see as anatta, since, especially under meditation conditions, it can be quite stable (whereas sensations, thoughts, etc, can be seen to rise and fall very rapidly). So it is easy to mistake the "calm meditative mind" as some sort of "true self".

I think Ajahn Brahm mentions this in Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond, but it's a reasonably common observation, and something you can explore yourself.

:anjali:
Mike
that's exactly my problem. in daily life it's fairly visible that consciousness is changing at all times so seeing anicca is one thing. seeing dukkha as well since obviously consciousness has stress in it. however as you said the meditative mind seems seamless so where is anatta? perhaps in the fact that the meditative mind is only so solid in meditation and that those factors exist dependent on meditation and cease after you leave the cushion?
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alan...
alan... wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Remember to think here of consciousness in terms of the six-consciousnesses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
retro you just blew my mind! i had been thinking in terms of western psychological idea of consciousness. not in the buddhist six consciousnesses! this solves everything!!! thanks!
Right, and now you've done that... see if you can find the "western psychological idea of consciousness" anywhere independently of the five aggregates.

Metta,
Retro. :)
nowhere, except on the cushion, there i see it as a single thing, hence my continued confusion.

i sit and can view all six consciousnesses as one panoramic viewpoint. i can feel, see, hear, think, smell and taste all at once which is an illusion of a constant self. so the problem continues. at first your idea of seeing six consciousnesses worked quite well, until i sat down...

i can still see it as impermanent easily, and i see it as not self intellectually but i can't see it deeply.
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote:Remember the Dependent Origination sequence. Consciousness is part of a process.
right so because consciousness is dependent on many other factors it is not antta, right? how do i contemplate and observe this? especially on the cushion?
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Remember the Dependent Origination sequence. Consciousness is part of a process.
right so because consciousness is dependent on many other factors it is not antta, right? how do i contemplate and observe this? especially on the cushion?
Atta (self), not antta.
It is a reflective point to keep in mind when you see the grasping at a sense of self. When you believe something is so tell your mind it is lying to you.
Reflect on the Anatta-lakkha Sutta here.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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equilibrium
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by equilibrium »

alan... wrote:.....i can feel, see, hear, think, smell and taste all at once which is an illusion of a constant self......
Between these, there is one which is more important than them all, do you know which one and why?
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

equilibrium wrote:
alan... wrote:.....i can feel, see, hear, think, smell and taste all at once which is an illusion of a constant self......
Between these, there is one which is more important than them all, do you know which one and why?
obviously i don't so what is it?
alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Remember the Dependent Origination sequence. Consciousness is part of a process.
right so because consciousness is dependent on many other factors it is not antta, right? how do i contemplate and observe this? especially on the cushion?
Atta (self), not antta.
It is a reflective point to keep in mind when you see the grasping at a sense of self. When you believe something is so tell your mind it is lying to you.
Reflect on the Anatta-lakkha Sutta here.
man for some reason talking to you i always have annoying typos, sorry! i meant "right so because consciousness is dependent on many other factors it is anatta, right?" that typo totally changed my meaning lol!

i really am not as ignorant as that made me sound. anatta is not self atta is self. "an" is a negative connotation. this is the pali equivalent of atman and anatman in sanskrit and so on.

thanks for the sutta link! i will look at it.
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