help me understand how consciousness is not self

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
alan...
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help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:59 am

i understand the other four groups of grasping no problem:

(1) corporeality, (2) feeling, (3) perception, (4) mental formations

and i get , (5) consciousness provisionally but not deeply.

as far as i can tell consciousness is not self because: it is always changing, you cannot force it to remain the same and it stops and starts.

mindfulness makes it easy to see the not self of all the other groups but the very mindfulness being used seems to be a "self" kind of consciousness. obviously it is not actually a self. please explain in depth how consciousness is not self.

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retrofuturist
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:48 am

Greetings,

Remember to think here of consciousness in terms of the six-consciousnesses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:53 am


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mikenz66
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:38 am

Hi Alan,

I thought you might be referring to citta (as in the "mood" sense of the third satipatthana) rather than the consciousness aggregate or the sense doors. As I understand it, citta is often the most difficult thing to see as anatta, since, especially under meditation conditions, it can be quite stable (whereas sensations, thoughts, etc, can be seen to rise and fall very rapidly). So it is easy to mistake the "calm meditative mind" as some sort of "true self".

I think Ajahn Brahm mentions this in Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond, but it's a reasonably common observation, and something you can explore yourself.

:anjali:
Mike

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Cittasanto
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:59 am

Remember the Dependent Origination sequence. Consciousness is part of a process.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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retrofuturist
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:34 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:21 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:26 pm


alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:44 pm


alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:48 pm


alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:50 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:24 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby equilibrium » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:26 pm


alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:03 pm


alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:06 pm


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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby pulga » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:16 pm


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equilibrium
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby equilibrium » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:25 pm


alan...
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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:27 pm


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Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:04 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: help me understand how consciousness is not self

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:48 pm



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