jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:Does not one have to attain the first four jhanas before moving on to the second four?
The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
Anyway the Buddha attaned what they attained and rejected it as being sufficient.
Insufficient and unnecessary, surely; but then, instead of saying "these formless attainments are insufficient, but this preceding jhana which is taught is maybe useful..." he said "this stuff is useless; maybe I should practice based on that earlier experience when I was a youth..."
tiltbillings wrote:It is a bit more just conceptually thinking in terms of a self. Interestingly jhana can suppress that feeling of self, but that is far from insight into the nature of self.
Jhana, practiced as cited, puts an end to sakkayaditthi, which is a damn good start.

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  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

I believe Alara Kalama one of the Buddhas two teachers taught Jhana. And it is at least mentioned in the Dhammawiki as being true.
I personally believe the Rose Apple tree recollection rather than another was the imutus for the Buddha pursuing the Jhana's later on because it was not surrounded by striving for something, or the hardships he was undergoing so was free from the association with the harsh practices.
He understood it wasn't sufficient and required more traction (remember the Jhana's are always described using liquid similies) to break through to Nibbana, which Vipassana gave (and it has been suggested in a lecture by Venerable Analaya, via the observation from a participant, that insight practice is called dry for a contrast to the Jhana's).
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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daverupa
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

Cittasanto wrote:I believe Alara Kalama one of the Buddhas two teachers taught Jhana. And it is at least mentioned in the Dhammawiki as being true.
He taught the sphere of nothingness; and I'd not call him a teacher of the Buddha.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

daverupa wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I believe Alara Kalama one of the Buddhas two teachers taught Jhana. And it is at least mentioned in the Dhammawiki as being true.
He taught the sphere of nothingness.
I fail to see your point here.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
daverupa
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

Cittasanto wrote:
daverupa wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I believe Alara Kalama one of the Buddhas two teachers taught Jhana. And it is at least mentioned in the Dhammawiki as being true.
He taught the sphere of nothingness.
I fail to see your point here.
sphere of nothingness =/= jhana
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

daverupa wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
daverupa wrote: He taught the sphere of nothingness.
I fail to see your point here.
sphere of nothingness =/= jhana
sure, it is a formless attainment, which in the Buddhist scheme stems from the fourth Jhana.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
alan...
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote:
daverupa wrote: He taught the sphere of nothingness.
I fail to see your point here.



i think you guys are debating something that you both agree on. citta said something about alara using jhana, dave just made roughly the same point, citta agrees but didn't quite get what dave was getting at, dave gets citta and so on.

alara taught jhana, citta agrees on this and so does dave.
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote: i think you guys are debating something that you both agree on. citta said something about alara using jhana, dave just made roughly the same point, citta agrees but didn't quite get what dave was getting at, dave gets citta and so on.

alara taught jhana, citta agrees on this and so does dave.
not debating but doubt we are agreeing bearing this in mind
daverupa wrote:The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
lojong1
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by lojong1 »

Cittasanto wrote:sure, it is a formless attainment, which in the Buddhist scheme stems from the fourth Jhana.
I'm not convinced of this either, even though it is often mentioned after the jhanas. The stock phrase "having attained [4th jhana]" never connects them as far as I've seen, then the whole childhood tree sit and Alara Kalama dealy, and weren't there some Transcendental Meditators who thought they were skipping straight to the formless?...
alan...
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote: i think you guys are debating something that you both agree on. citta said something about alara using jhana, dave just made roughly the same point, citta agrees but didn't quite get what dave was getting at, dave gets citta and so on.

alara taught jhana, citta agrees on this and so does dave.
not debating but doubt we are agreeing bearing this in mind
daverupa wrote:The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
oh okay lol. i didn't see that and thought this was an odd misunderstanding.
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:sure, it is a formless attainment, which in the Buddhist scheme stems from the fourth Jhana.
I'm not convinced of this either, even though it is often mentioned after the jhanas. The stock phrase "having attained [4th jhana]" never connects them as far as I've seen, then the whole childhood tree sit and Alara Kalama dealy, and weren't there some Transcendental Meditators who thought they were skipping straight to the formless?...
hi Lojong,
Can you show one instance the formless attainments are treated separately?
I ask because I can not think of any case of this happening.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote: i think you guys are debating something that you both agree on. citta said something about alara using jhana, dave just made roughly the same point, citta agrees but didn't quite get what dave was getting at, dave gets citta and so on.

alara taught jhana, citta agrees on this and so does dave.
not debating but doubt we are agreeing bearing this in mind
daverupa wrote:The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
oh okay lol. i didn't see that and thought this was an odd misunderstanding.
I wouldn't of asked if that wasn't there and would of understood it the way you did if it wasn't.

EDIT=
plus there was this also
sphere of nothingness =/= jhana
the =/= is a representation of the ≠ meaning (in mathmatics) not equal too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equals_sign#Not_equal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
daverupa
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

Cittasanto wrote:Can you show one instance the formless attainments are treated separately?
One occasion is MN 121. Another is MN 106.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
lojong1
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by lojong1 »

Cittasanto wrote:Can you show one instance the formless attainments are treated separately?
I'm looking. mettam sutta has lots of weaselly ors, but concentration-enlightenment-factor replaces explicit jhana.

maha-nidana sutta relates infinite space to stations of consciousness, and any link between these beings and jhana is hidden from me right now.
"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space."

Ananda Sutta
Here's what I was looking for -- straight into infinite space.
"[Ananda:] "There is the case where, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form,[...] one enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space."

uh-oh! This translation of Vihara Sutta says the 9 attainments are "step-by-step."

I'll keep looking.
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mirco
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by mirco »

alan... wrote:i read an article about pre buddhist jhana but it doesn't specify whether or not this practice continued into hinduism or if it did, how it was/is regarded. at least not that i saw, i skimmed some and did a couple of ctrl+f word searches for words like "hinduism", "vedas" and so on. it talks about a group called "Parama-diṭṭhadhamma-nibbānavāda" or perhaps this is a person? i'm not clear on that and a web search was fruitless. does anyone know more of the details on this or have any opinions?
Maybe this is of interest for you:

Biswadeb Mukherjee:
A Pre-Buddhist Meditation System and its Early Modifications by Gotama the Boddhisattva -> go "Articles"

(-: Regards
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