Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby lojong1 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:17 pm

How many Sekha (stream entry or above) and Arahant can we find in the texts delighting during or after a discourse?
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:49 pm

lojong1 wrote:How many Sekha (stream entry or above) and Arahant can we find in the texts delighting during or after a discourse?

numerous, I doubt the number has been counted.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby James the Giant » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:24 am

lojong1 wrote:How many Sekha (stream entry or above) and Arahant can we find in the texts delighting during or after a discourse?

I seem to remember when the suttas say "500 bhikkhus heard the Blessed one's words, and attained the stage of Arahant there and then"... they are not actually 500, it's just a code for "lots"
Likewise a prince with 500 elephants and 500 followers and 500 concubines, etc. Just lots, not 500.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby lojong1 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:53 pm

1) A bhikkhu is equivalent to a sekha? I didn't think so.

2) The text says these bhikkhus delighted after becoming arahants?
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:10 pm

Hi lojong1

1) A bhikkhu is equivalent to a sekha? I didn't think so.
No, the term in use in the canon is only for the Bhikkhus not any attainment or anything other than they are fully accepted into the Mendicant community. as we previously discussed in brief.
The term may, however, be used in a general way - similar to how man can refer to the sex or humanity at large - there are places where a Bhikkhuni uses the term denoting or including herself, so to say it only specifically means a male mendicant may not always be the case when it is a particularly large group, and may refer to the fourfold sangha in these instances.
[edit=]just to note that this is my personal opinion not common stance.

2) The text says these these bhikkhus delighted after becoming arahants?
do you have a particular quote in mind?
As the majority of groups were said to be Bhikkhus (although I do not believe it is the case as explained above) when anyone arrived at a level of path & fruit they rejoyced, and generally ordained (although I can not think of an instance where they didn't off hand).
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby lojong1 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:39 pm

Cittasanto wrote:2) The text says these these bhikkhus delighted after becoming arahants?
do you have a particular quote in mind?


No. It's a linguistic curiosity about the different types of delighting (nandati/abhinandati) and other activities that beings of different levels tend towards, and I don't recall seeing anyone other than laypeople and anonymous bhikkhus of unknown attainments delighting, which makes sense doctrinally.

What I expected here was that people would assume that examples of what I've asked for would be easy to find, yet would not be able to find any examples.
I'm delighted either way. One day at a time.
Last edited by lojong1 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby lojong1 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:47 pm

MN 109 has bhikkhus delighting and then still being fully released from fermentations, lucky blighters!:

"That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of sixty
monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentations."
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:13 pm

lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:2) The text says these these bhikkhus delighted after becoming arahants?
do you have a particular quote in mind?


No. It's a linguistic curiosity about the different types of delighting (nandati/abhinandati) and other activities that monks of different levels tend towards, and I don't recall seeing anyone other than laypeople and anonymous bhikkhus of unknown attainments delighting, which makes sense doctrinally.

What I expected here was that people would assume that examples of what I've asked for would be easy to find, yet would not be able to find any examples.
I'm delighted either way. One day at a time.

as far as I am aware there is no differentiation between "delight" when a fruit is attained at the end of a discourse.
there are many stock passages used within the texts so it is not surprising that there wouldn't be any. However, when a string of words (three in the suttas usually) it is simply emphasising the same thing and the different terms are pseudonyms.

lojong1 wrote:MN 109 has bhikkhus delighting and then still being fully released from fermentations, lucky blighters!:

"That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of sixty
monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentations."

I thought that type of passage was being referred to.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby lojong1 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:04 am

In DN 21, Sakka the self proclaimed stream-winner deva-king abhinandis all over the place and then opens the eye of dhamma/enters the stream. End of sutta states he entered stream during this discourse. This translation is abbreviated, and it's not clear to me here if he continued to delight after stream entry.

Anyhow, I didn't expect to find these so easily.
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby lojong1 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:54 am

The powerful Mahamoggallana was an abhinandier!
Well I never!
I'm not playing any more :( , probably a mistake in the text anyway.
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Re: Where's Waldo the Sekha?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:18 am

Don't jump to conclusions.
These are stock passages. It is not the case that there is a mistake rather something maybe being emphasised, or it is no more than a memory aid.

but why would a Arahant not be glad, or rejoice at truth.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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