Ill get back to you in a few weeks. Im going to be studying the info from that link you posted. Ive never heard of a dictionary before! Weird right? Now im going to learn the definitions of all the words. Thanks much!Dmytro wrote:I don't know such places. You may find useful the book:alan... wrote:ideed. what was this school (other than the name, i know that and found nothing in a web search)? do you know of any other place i can read about them?
The Origin of Buddhist Meditation
By Alexander Wynne
http://books.google.com/books?id=TiZWJ1 ... frontcover" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I said it is a largely lost art, in a sense "to a large extent":it seems to me that many modern yoga practitioners of the hindu tradition practice them and would undoubtedly disagree with the notion of it being a "lost art". the same goes for all the modern theravada practitioners that practice it.
Definition of LARGELY
: in a large manner; especially : to a large extent : mostly, primarily <words largely unknown a decade ago>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/largely" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
When I read modern authoritative commentaries, for example, on Yoga-Sutra, it is evident for me that the authors don't comprehend the full meaning of the text.
The same applies to the Suttas. The translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign", IMHO, don't know some important practical nuances of the original texts.
Surely some talented people can attain samadhi largely spontaneously, without knowing any texts. However in such a case they have difficulties with teaching it to others. Effective teaching requires precise terminology.
Any tradition is a system of transferring knowledge, - a process of education which involves terminology. Samadhi states exist independently of traditions. With the partial lost of terminology, the art of education is partly lost. And then talented enthusiasts attain samadhi, but can't teach it to public at large.
jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
Ive never heard of a dictionary before! Weird right? Now im going to learn the definitions of all the words. Thanks much!
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
Here's a link to the full text:Dmytro wrote:\
I don't know such places. You may find useful the book:
The Origin of Buddhist Meditation
By Alexander Wynne
http://www.e-reading-lib.org/bookreader ... tation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.Dmytro wrote:alan... wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
this is an interesting pointtiltbillings wrote:I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.Dmytro wrote:alan... wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
i didn't say that.tiltbillings wrote:I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.Dmytro wrote:alan... wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
this should say:
Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?Dmytro wrote:When I read modern authoritative commentaries, for example, on Yoga-Sutra, it is evident for me that the authors don't comprehend the full meaning of the text.
The same applies to the Suttas. The translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign", IMHO, don't know some important practical nuances of the original texts.
that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
For got to delete . Corrected versrion:
Code: Select all
[quote="alan..."]
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
thankstiltbillings wrote:For got to delete. Corrected versrion:Code: Select all
[quote="alan..."]
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?
that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?
The 'sign' translation was introduced at the times of Thomas Rhys-Davids Pali-English dictionary, which was considered then to be a milestone with much to improve later. However it did not undergo improvement for almost a century, and all the imperfections and errors of this dictionary came to be "canonized" in the Western Buddhism. Now hardly anyone will question the inventions like "The Four Noble Thuths".
Well, if you are looking for authorities with qualifications, I can refer you to Stephen Hodge,
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 770#p39219" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Stephen_Hodge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and to the President of the Pali Text Society, Rupert Gethin, who in agreement with Stephen Hodge connects the term 'nimitta' with 'pratibimba' in his book "Foundations of Buddhism".
Also, as for the dictionaries, I would recommend you the new Pali-English dictionary by Margaret Cone. You may definitely enjoy reading the definition of 'nimitta' from there, which is much improved over the Rhys-Davids'es version.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
Hi Dmytro, thanks for that link on the "four noble truths" translation issues, and also for pointing out the meaning of nimitta. I think that "sign" can be read as "representation," but probably that's not how some people would read it, so it's important.
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
I take nimitta as "theme" in most cases, but it's a lively word.beeblebrox wrote:Hi Dmytro, thanks for that link on the "four noble truths" translation issues, and also for pointing out the meaning of nimitta. I think that "sign" can be read as "representation," but probably that's not how some people would read it, so it's important.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
Dmytro wrote:It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?
that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?
opinion: definition 3 a: "a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
Hi Alan, why this quibble?
As far as I could see, Dmytro did take enough care to say "IMHO" in his post... whether you believed that or not.
As far as I could see, Dmytro did take enough care to say "IMHO" in his post... whether you believed that or not.
Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.
(also) from your link:alan... wrote:opinion: definition 3 a: "a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert"Dmytro wrote:It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?
that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
opinion: definition 2a : "belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge"
I think that is a more fitting definition in this case. The list of definitions is not a "all must apply" list, but a "any could apply" list; you must understand the context to know which definition you find most fitting. Well that's just my opinion ;)
_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma