Gravity and Impermanence?

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nrose619
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Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby nrose619 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:42 pm

I have a philosophy club at my school and in today's meeting I said that almost everything is impermanent. One person disagreed saying that the law of gravity is permanent it was always here and always will be. I said gravity is dependent on mass therefore it is not a permanent self sustaining force/thing. Also, what about in dead space where there is an absence of gravity? He continued to restate that it's a law and has been scientifically proven therefore it is permanent. We both kinda ended up in a dead end. Any thoughts on this?

-Nick
"A silver bird
flies over the autumn lake.
When it has passed,
the lake's surface does not try
to hold on to the image of the bird."

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daverupa
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:19 pm


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nrose619
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby nrose619 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:43 pm

That didn't answer my question but perhaps I should have rephrased my statement of impermanence. Also could you explain what my "misunderstanding" is instead of sending me a link to a forum to dig through?

thanks,
-Nick
"A silver bird
flies over the autumn lake.
When it has passed,
the lake's surface does not try
to hold on to the image of the bird."

santa100
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby santa100 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:53 pm

Physical laws are only valid within their given scope. Until now, there's still on-going efforts to reconcile general relativity with the laws of quantum physics. To go beyond their own scope and apply them to the realm of super-massive objects like black holes and they'll break down. The math of Eternal Inflation shows that there's nothing wrong with a scenario of multiple universes, each is subjected to its own set of physical laws! Cern scientists are researching the activity of graviton to try to explain why gravity is so feeble compared to the other forces like electromagnetic or strong nuclear force. There're competing theories on the possibility of gravity leaking gravitons in and out of our universe from higher dimensional realms. In short, according to modern physics, there's nothing permanent about gravity..

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daverupa
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:21 pm


SarathW
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:47 pm

Hi Nrose
I am not a cosmologist but the way I will answer your question is using Big Bang Theory . Accordingly there was no gravity before the Big Bang and world will contract and end due to entropy. At that point no gravity left. Cosmologist agree that our world is impermanent and constantly change. Most of the science theories include hypothetical or arbitary numbers to compesate for the uncertain nature and new theories are introduced to replace old ones.

By the way practice Satipatthana and you will find the answer yourself! :meditate:

PS: I do not believe in the Big Bang Theory.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:47 am

Greetings,

I agree with what Dave has said above, and would go one step further and suggest that if dhammas are experiences, and sankhata dhammas are formed/conditioned experiences... then gravity falls outside the scope of both of these as it is neither of them. Gravity is not an experience... experiences are experienced via the six-sense-bases. Even if you could argue that gravity is experienced, then it is the experience of gravity that is impermanent in the Buddha's teaching.

What experiences can be formed are answered by suttas such as...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The Buddha was not averse to saying that certain principles (including the Dhamma itself) were steadfast and operated regardless of whether or not they were observed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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nrose619
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby nrose619 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:15 am

"A silver bird
flies over the autumn lake.
When it has passed,
the lake's surface does not try
to hold on to the image of the bird."

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daverupa
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:12 am


Mawkish1983
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:46 am


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m0rl0ck
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:27 am

E=MC2

And since gravity depends on mass i would call that the ultimate statement of impermanence. :) You might have to wait a while tho, but who says impermanence has to be limited to a human timescale.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

Mawkish1983
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:11 am


Mawkish1983
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:55 am

Just been thinking about non-inertial frames of reference... I'm struggling to remember this level of physics because I've not encountered it for many years (I only teach to children aged between 11 and 18). To children we teach that gravity is a fundamental force. Am I correct when I vaguely remember that gravity can be considered the result of a non-inertial (accelerating) frame of reference and, so, isn't really a force at all? It's such a hazy memory I'm quite embarrassed about it. There are other physicists who use DW and still operate at that deeper level, could they help me? (Mikenz66 springs to mind, if I remember the username correctly).

One thing is certain, memory really is impermanent!

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James the Giant
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby James the Giant » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:40 am

Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:28 pm

Gravity is a side effect of the existence of matter. The matter deforms space as a side effect of its existence. You might as well consider gravity a property of matter rather than as some all encompassing feild waiting to spring into action. Anything conditional is impermanent and gravity depends on matter.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

Mawkish1983
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:16 pm

That doesn't resolve the problem of the equivalence principle.

rahul3bds
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby rahul3bds » Wed May 29, 2013 6:33 am


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Spiny Norman
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed May 29, 2013 1:00 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

chownah
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby chownah » Wed May 29, 2013 2:51 pm


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Gravity and Impermanence?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed May 29, 2013 10:20 pm

This is from the quoted in my story about , who would later become Angulimāla.

‘To associate with the wise, even only on one occasion is of great advantage;
to associate with the foolish even on many occasions is of no benefit.’

‘One should associate with the wise and listen to their teaching;
one who does will become noble-minded,
no harm comes from learning the teaching of the wise.’

‘The splendid royal chariots, once so beautiful, grow old and decay,
but the teaching of the wise is ageless and never changes,
this is what the wise talk about among themselves.’

‘The sky is very far from the earth, and the earth is very far from the heavens,
but farther apart than these are the teaching of the wise and the teaching of the foolish.’
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)


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