What is intellect & mental qualities.

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SarathW
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What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by SarathW »

Is intellect the brain? Does brain come under the body category?
Refer to:
"Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises body-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the intellect & mental qualities there arises intellect-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world."

source
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by santa100 »

Alternative translation from Ven. Bodhi:
In dependence on the eye and forms ... In dependence on the ear and sounds ... In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes ... In dependence on the body and tactile objects ... In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling [comes to be]; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging … existence … birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world
So, the "mind" (mana) is one among the 6 sense faculties. Although being classified separately from the "body", the mind is inclusive in the sense that it acts as the resort to the other five faculties and experiences their fields and domains. This is further clarified by Bodhi:
the five outer sense faculties each have their own unique object: forms/eye, sounds/ear, etc.-but the mind faculty is able to experience the objects of all 5 sense faculties as well as the mental objects exclusive to itself. Hence the other five faculties have mind as their resort
SarathW
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by SarathW »

Hi Santa
Great answer!
However I need further clarity if you can. Say when I meditate, I keep my attention on ear,nose,body,tongue,eyes etc.
Say then I think about you (Santa 100).
Does it come from my brain which is body? does it?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by santa100 »

Although the physical brain is important to the proper function of the mind, it'd be incorrect to say the mental process "comes" from the brain. In other word, the mind is not "born" out of the brain. Otherwise, it'd mean the "body" is a resort to the mind. But instead, it's the "mind" that is the resort to the other 5 sense faculties. So during meditation, when you think about a mental object, according to the sutta, that means your mind, the mental object, and your mind consciousness have made "contact". .
SarathW
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by SarathW »

Thanks. I hope I will undestand this one day. :idea: :twothumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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kirk5a
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by kirk5a »

A basic tenet of the Buddha's teachings is that the mind and body work together, but that the body lies under the control of the mind. The mind is what orders the body to do this or that activity, but when the body wears down, the mind is of necessity put to some hardship as well. It doesn't lie under the control of the nervous system, although the brain can be regarded as a central office. When the body dies, disintegrating in line with the nature of its various elements, the mind — if the necessary conditions of unawareness, craving, attachment, and kamma are still present — will have to reappear in this or that plane of existence and to continue experiencing suffering and stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... along.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Works for me.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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ground
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by ground »

santa100 wrote:Although the physical brain is important to the proper function of the mind, it'd be incorrect to say the mental process "comes" from the brain. In other word, the mind is not "born" out of the brain.
What evidence is there for this assumption?
santa100 wrote: Otherwise, it'd mean the "body" is a resort to the mind.
Not at all. It simply may mean that consciousness arises dependently from the brain in the context of living body . "mind" can only be positted by consciousness itself as something different from itself (i.e. "idea") :sage:
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kirk5a
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by kirk5a »

ground wrote: "mind" can only be positted by consciousness itself as something different from itself (i.e. "idea") :sage:
What is "consciousness itself"?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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ground
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by ground »

kirk5a wrote:
ground wrote: "mind" can only be positted by consciousness itself as something different from itself (i.e. "idea") :sage:
What is "consciousness itself"?
The idea "consciousness itself" itself. :sage:
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kirk5a
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by kirk5a »

ground wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
ground wrote: "mind" can only be positted by consciousness itself as something different from itself (i.e. "idea") :sage:
What is "consciousness itself"?
The idea "consciousness itself" itself. :sage:
How does the idea "consciousness itself" posit the idea "mind" ?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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ground
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by ground »

ground wrote: "mind" can only be positted by consciousness itself as something different from itself (i.e. "idea") :sage:
kirk5a wrote:What is "consciousness itself"?
ground wrote:The idea "consciousness itself" itself. :sage:
kirk5a wrote:How does the idea "consciousness itself" posit the idea "mind" ?
"posit" in the context above just is a means of symbolic expression of consciousness grasping itself as more than just a conditioned idea. In this sense and context "mind" is like e.g. "God". Both are just consciousnesses aka ideas. :sage:
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kirk5a
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by kirk5a »

"quivering"
"wavering"
"subtle"
"wandering"
"unsteady"
"wakeful"
"tamed"
"restrained"
"concentrated"

It is not ideas which are described as such - but the mind.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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ground
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by ground »

kirk5a wrote:It is not ideas which are described as such - but the mind.
No problem. All these are just ideas.
"Is" and "is not" are consciousnesses grasping themselves too. Actually the sense of self causes this because sense of self and consciousness are not two. Sense of self grows on affirmation. Affirmation is self-referential. Call it mind or nothing, no difference. But if you want to apply the words of religious tradition - and maybe this is the place here to do so - then "mind" may comply but "nothing" may not comply with convention of religious tradition. Just ignore words that do not comply. Words do not make a difference, but consciousness does. :sage:
santa100
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by santa100 »

ground wrote:
santa100 wrote:Although the physical brain is important to the proper function of the mind, it'd be incorrect to say the mental process "comes" from the brain. In other word, the mind is not "born" out of the brain.
What evidence is there for this assumption?
It's not an assumption. It's the central tenet of Materialism which is a wrong view and has been discussed pretty thoroughly in many threads. To materialists, matter is primary, and mind or spirit or ideas are secondary, the product of matter acting upon matter..
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kirk5a
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Re: What is intellect & mental qualities.

Post by kirk5a »

ground wrote: "Is" and "is not" are consciousnesses grasping themselves too. Actually the sense of self causes this because sense of self and consciousness are not two. Sense of self grows on affirmation. Affirmation is self-referential. Call it mind or nothing, no difference. But if you want to apply the words of religious tradition - and maybe this is the place here to do so - then "mind" may comply but "nothing" may not comply with convention of religious tradition. Just ignore words that do not comply. Words do not make a difference, but consciousness does. :sage:
Since we are in the "General Theravada discussion" the expectation here is to say something meaningful within, as you put it, "the conventions of that religious tradition." Your manner of speaking does not, as you say, "comply."

The discernment of the actuality of the qualities and activities of the mind is what we have been instructed to do by the Buddha. That is what is at issue here.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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