The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:31 am

danieLion wrote:RobertK,
This is a wonderful thread. Thank you.

Thanks, not sure everyone agrees. :soap:

More about 'daily practice'

In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They explained they were given over to the joys of wives and family and captivated by the five strands of sense pleasures. They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus:


"as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days."


That would be pretty much be what I do from time to time....

Hope that is not being evasive?

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:33 am

Virgo wrote:
robertk wrote:baby...

Congratulations.

robertk wrote:Sales girl asks where I am from and whether she can come to new zealand with me. Feel 10 years under my age after that comment.

C'mon Rob, you always got all the ladies. It's 1/3 the accent, 1/3 perpetually youthful look, and 1/3 $100 jeans :tongue:

Kevin

Haha you know me too well. I :toast:
Good to see you posting again .

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:16 pm

robertk wrote:
"as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days."


That would be pretty much be what I do from time to time....

Hope that is not being evasive?
It is not being transparent. And then when you have learned the discourses, then what?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:35 pm

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:It is not being transparent. And then when you have learned the discourses, then what?

Bring them to mind regularly and observe experience accordingly, perhaps?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:16 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:It is not being transparent. And then when you have learned the discourses, then what?

Bring them to mind regularly and observe experience accordingly, perhaps?
Perhaps, but what do you mean by "observe experience accordingly?" How do we know that won't be: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now?"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:43 pm

I repeat my analogy of the seeing process

Think of the seeing process. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every brief moment of seeing an object arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise.
We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.....

So we don't send children to a special school to train them how to see or hear or taste or smell. If they have eyes and ears, tongue and nose they will experience color, sound etc. al they have to do to see is open their eyes.
But if they don't have eyes or if their eyes are damaged no amount of training , determination, effort and willpower will make seeing occur.

Likewise there are objects such as feeling, hardness, desire, aversion and all the other objects listed in the satipathhana sutta arising all the time . Whether one focuses or doesn't focus. Whether one sits under a tree, urinates, defecates, walks up and down, looks behind, looks in front the objects are appearing. But just as color is beyond the ken of a blind man , so the real nature of each object is hidden to the one without right view.

On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the eye of wisdom is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:47 pm

robertk wrote:Good to see you..

Likewise. :P

Kevin

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:48 pm

robertk wrote:I repeat my analogy of the seeing process

Think of the seeing process. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every brief moment of seeing an object arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise.
We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.....

So we don't send children to a special school to train them how to see or hear or taste or smell. If they have eyes and ears, tongue and nose they will experience color, sound etc. al they have to do to see is open their eyes.
But if they don't have eyes or if their eyes are damaged no amount of training , determination, effort and willpower will make seeing occur.
Likewise there are objects such as feeling, hardness, desire, aversion and all the other objects listed in the satipathhana sutta arising all the time . Whether one focuses or doesn't focus. Whether one sits under a tree, urinates, defecates, walks up and down, looks behind, looks in front the objects are appearing. But just as color is beyond the ken of a blind man , so the real nature of each object is hidden to the one without right view.
On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the mental eye if seeing is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.

That is why the path is so narrow.

Kevin

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:58 pm

robertk wrote:I
On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the mental eye if seeing is open and not impaired.
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.
So one just has to have the right conceptual structure to see clearly.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:00 pm

Virgo wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .

That is why the path is so narrow.
Actually, if it were as simple as robertk's seems to present it, it would be very easy, indeed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .

That is why the path is so narrow.
Actually, if it were as simple as robertk's seems to present it, it would be very easy, indeed.

No. it's not easy, nor difficult, because it is not a thing we "do". It occurs, slowly. What occurs? With conceptual Right View, wisdom on the level of experience occurs when conditions are right as we move through the days, weeks, etc. This happens slowly. We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord. After all, what we are seeing is anatta in action itself. Slowly, over many, many lifetimes, many of them, wisdom gets deeper and deeper.

Kevin

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is there a conventional self who decides?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:42 pm

Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:25 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?

There is no 'I', Tilt, nor a 'you'. C'mon I thought you were a Buddhist. :guns: :tongue:

There are arising dhammas, but not a self person.

Kevin

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:41 pm

Welcome back, Kev!

I see you and Tilt found each other :tongue:

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:47 pm

SDC wrote:Welcome back, Kev!

I see you and Tilt found each other :tongue:

Thank you.

:tongue:

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:54 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?

There is no 'I', Tilt, nor a 'you'. C'mon I thought you were a Buddhist. :guns: :tongue:

There are arising dhammas, but not a self person.

Kevin
I did not say there was a self or person in any absolute sense, and you are being, again, evasive. The nice thing is that your point of view -- We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord -- is an outlier, not really consistent with the core of the Buddha's teachings.

    “Owners of their kamma are beings, heirs of their kamma, kamma is their womb from which they are born, their kamma is their friend, their refuge. Whatever kamma they perform, good or bad, there of they will be the heirs.” - MN 135; iii 206; MLDB p. 1057.

    This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38. * *

In other words, by our actions we can, indeed, adjust "those conditions" that give rise to insight and awakening by cultivating the precepts, lovingkindness, compassion, generosity, concentration, mindfulness, right view, etc. Adjusting those conditions is the whole point of the Buddha's teachings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?


It's also impossible for the conditions to arise on their own accord...

:anjali:

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:01 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord.
Did you write that sentence of your own accord?


I think it's also impossible for the conditions to arise on their own accord...

:anjali:
And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:05 pm

tiltbillings wrote:And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.


Yes, and I think you also helped him to write that sentence by supplying him some of the necessary conditions. :)

:sage:

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:06 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And it is possible to use conventional language to explore a point. There was a choice in his choosing to write or not to write that sentence.


Yes, and I think you also helped him to write that sentence by supplying him some of the necessary conditions. :)
Of course, but the choice was his.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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