The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Polar Bear
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Polar Bear »

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:No hay problema Senor. Twas a pleasure and a privilege.

:namaste:
It is an interesting topic. Though it is not talked about directly in this way in a classical sense, much of the practice is about dealing with the sense "self" that we are stuck with until we get some degree of awakening. The precepts, the social emotions (lovingkindness, etc), meditation are all part of that.
Indeed it is interesting. My current understanding of the gradual training, precepts etc., is that they are designed to have us build up the most wholesome, blameless, skillful sense of self that is possible to build since we're stuck with some sense of self anyway until arahantship. This slowly chips away at our greed, aversion and delusion until one gets to the point where they realize that even all that great blameless virtue, meditative attainments, etc. as well as the 5 khandas are ultimately stressful and subject to cessation and at that point one is able to finally completely let go (of everything) with total peace of mind. Basically you get fed up with dragging around even the greatest sense of self possible and this results in dispassion and relinquishment. Even non-returners still have a residual conceit I am which I find rather interesting. Anyway, that's the gist of my understanding so far.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. " SN III 46.
This 'assumption' is actuallly miccha-ditthi, wrong view , and is something that should be seen as the greatest evil. Not as something good.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

kirk5a wrote:Who decided to start this thread? Robert. Case closed.
Ok but since there have been other posts after your one I guess some members thought there was still some opening in the case.

Let's look at when I decided to begin this thread . Is there really an "I" or is that merely a conventional and useful description of a complex set of processes?
Vajira Sutta BhikkuniSamyutta
Vajirahttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn05-010a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then the bhikkhuni Vajira, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses: "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases."

And during the time of thinking about this new topic and finally posting it what was really happening?
Well according to Buddhaghosa in the Commentary to the Samyutta nikaya, The Book of Causation (Nidaanavagga) VII The Great Subchapter 61
(1) Uninstructed (1) p. 595 Samyutta Nikaya Vol 1 (translated by Bodhi)
note 157.
one citta is
not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the
time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and
cease (1 koti=10 million).
So yes there was intention and effort and concentration and other factors all working. But each of these factors arises momentarily and then falls away. In the long period of time from starting o think about making a new thread to actually posting it- which took probably a couple of minutes how many completely different cetanas (intention) arose and fall away... sooo many trillions. Which ones where kusala, which akusala: in fact I have no idea because this rapid rise and fall is clouded by ignorance and so rare for satisampajanna to penetrate.

Thus there is already so much ignorance (avijja) but if it is allied with wrong view and desire then there is no way for any understanding to ever grow. That is why careful and honest study of the texts is so vital.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. " SN III 46.
This 'assumption' is actuallly miccha-ditthi, wrong view , and is something that should be seen as the greatest evil. Not as something good.
Nobody said it was something good, but the reality is that we can tell the "sense of self" where to get off, we can tell it to drop dead, but we are stuck with it until there is sufficient insight, not conceptual thinking about it, but actual insight into the nature of the "self," into the conditioned co-produced nature of the khandhas.

In the mean time it is reigned in, tamed, by the precepts and by the other practices outlined by the Buddha, which help set up the conditions that allow for freeing insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Who decided to start this thread? Robert. Case closed.
Ok but since there have been other posts after your one I guess some members thought there was still some opening in the case.

Let's look at when I decided to begin this thread . Is there really an "I" or is that merely a conventional and useful descrition of a complex set of processes?
Vajira Sutta BhikkuniSamyutta
Vajirahttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn05-010a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then the bhikkhuni Vajira, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses: "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases."
And that reflects awakening, but in the mean time for those of us not quite there yet:
Dhammapada: 157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night.

158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached.

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is self-control.

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain.

161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem.

162. Just as a single creeper strangles the tree on which it grows, even so, a man who is exceedingly depraved harms himself as only an enemy might wish.

163. Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial.

164. Whoever, on account of perverted views, scorns the Teaching of the Perfected Ones, the Noble and Righteous Ones — that fool, like the bamboo, produces fruits only for self destruction. [14]

165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.

166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SamKR »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, Robert, I'll ask you again, what does what you are advocating look like as an actual daily practice?
Here is a summary of yesterday's practice.
Wake up, check email, brush teeth. Go to coffee shop, read local newscpaper while indulging in brewed coffee. Go to gym, 30 minutes on stepmill then a 1km swim. Go to office, have first meeting of day. Forget about second schefuled meeting, arrive 15 minutes late for that.
Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.
Finish work early, go to shopping center. Buy a shirt at La Martina. Sales girl asks where I am from and whether she can come to new zealand with me. Feel 10 years under my age after that comment.
Have a coffe and tuna bun at Belly sandwich shop, outstanding service and taste. And so it goes...
Suppose my "practice" yesterday was similar to yours as quoted above...and then:

sit on a cushion, start observing breath for half an hour, and then observe bodily sensations for another half an hour -- while contemplating the Buddha's teachings about anicca, dukkha, anatta; while observing arising and passing away; while observing reduction of raga-dosa-moha and increase in equanimity.
Would this last addition of mine be considered a part of daily practice for the sake of wisdom?
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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SamKR wrote:
robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, Robert, I'll ask you again, what does what you are advocating look like as an actual daily practice?
Here is a summary of yesterday's practice.
Wake up, check email, brush teeth. Go to coffee shop, read local newscpaper while indulging in brewed coffee. Go to gym, 30 minutes on stepmill then a 1km swim. Go to office, have first meeting of day. Forget about second schefuled meeting, arrive 15 minutes late for that.
Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.
Finish work early, go to shopping center. Buy a shirt at La Martina. Sales girl asks where I am from and whether she can come to new zealand with me. Feel 10 years under my age after that comment.
Have a coffe and tuna bun at Belly sandwich shop, outstanding service and taste. And so it goes...
Suppose my "practice" yesterday was similar to yours as quoted above...and then:

sit on a cushion, start observing breath for half an hour, and then observe bodily sensations for another half an hour -- while contemplating the Buddha's teachings about anicca, dukkha, anatta; while observing arising and passing away; while observing reduction of raga-dosa-moha and increase in equanimity.
Would this last addition of mine be considered a part of daily practice for the sake of wisdom?
Dear Sam
let's think about silabataparamasa. This is one of the things that has to be eliminated for nibbana to arise.

It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.

And even the more subtle - and ostensibly correct - 'contemplating anicca , dukkha, anatta ' at leisure or whatever, is close to an idea of a self that can decide to have these type of contemplations.
The comment about 'observing rising and passing away" . To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this. After all in in truth the elements are rising and falling trillions of times in a second.

Eveyone, even non-buddhist, see/know that things change, that at one moment there is seeing, one moment hearing, that there is a flux of everchanging feelings : but there is an idea of a self who is doing so, there is no real seeing of the actual separation of mind aand matter.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.
sīlabbata-parāmāsa
and -upādāna:

'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana), and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upādāna).

It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotāpatti).

For definition, s. upādāna.

upādāna
'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (tanhā).

The 4 kinds of clinging are:

sensuous clinging (kāmupādāna),
clinging to views (ditthupādāna),
clinging to mere rules and ritual (sīlabbatupādāna),
clinging to the personality-belief (atta-vādupādāna).
(1) "What now is the sensuous clinging? Whatever with regard to sensuous objects there exists of sensuous lust, sensuous desire, sensuous attachment, sensuous passion, sensuous deluded ness, sensuous fetters: this is called sensuous clinging.

(2) ''What is the clinging to views? 'Alms and offerings are useless; there is no fruit and result for good and bad deeds: all such view and wrong conceptions are called the clinging to views.

(3) "What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual.

(4) "What is the clinging to the personality-belief? The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the groups of existence (s. sakkāya-ditthi): these are called the clinging to the personality-belief" (Dhs.1214-17).

This traditional fourfold division of clinging is not quite satisfactory. Besides kamupādāna we should expect either rūpupādāna and arūpupādāna, or simply bhavupādāna. Though the Anāgāmī is entirely free from the traditional 4 kinds of upādāna, he is not freed from rebirth, as he still possesses bhavupādāna. The Com. to Vis.M. XVII, in trying to get out of this dilemma, explains kāmupādāna as including here all the remaining kinds of clinging.

"Clinging' is the common rendering for u., though 'grasping' would come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'; s. Three Cardinal Discourses (WHEEL 17), p.19.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_ ... amaasa.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/upaadaana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

A rather astounding statement here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which probably renders most of what most people here are doing as being at best problematic. But there is this:
robertk wrote: To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this.
I am guessing I would not be alone in asking you, since, according to you, what we usually think and understand as Dhamma practice is likely not of any real value, then how does one deepen wisdom?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:A rather astounding statement here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which probably renders most of what most people here are doing as being at best problematic. But there is this:
robertk wrote: To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this.
I am guessing I would not be alone in asking you, since, accoirding to you, what we usually think and understand as Dhamma practice is likely not of any real value, then how does one deepen wisdom?
This thread has already given suttas such as the Ghosa sutta (thanks Dave)as reference.

In the Commentary to the Susima sutta by Buddhaghosa it says
Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."


Vipassana(insight) itself is one of the synonyms of panna wisdom- it is advanced wisdom.
I mentioned in a prior post about a virtous circle I think which would be worth looking at again.
as the suttas say "
Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up
. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121"
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller of Delusion) by Buddhaghosa, pp.138-9,



"In the description of Right View, by dukkhe ~naa.na.m ('knowledge concerning suffering) and so on are pointed out the four truths as meditation subject. Herein, the first two are process [of existence], the last two standstill. Among these the bhikkhu's laying to heart (abhiniveso) of the meditation subject is in the process, there is no laying to heart in the standstill. For the meditator works on his meditation subject by learning in from a teacher in brief thus: 'Which are the five aggregates?' and he goes over it verbally again and again. But as regards the other two truths, he does his work by hearing: 'the Truth of Cessation is agreeable, desirable, pleasing, the Truth of the Path is agreeable, desirable, pleasing.' Doing his work thus, he penetrates the four truths with a single penetration. He achieves them with a single achievement. He penetrates suffering with the penetration of full understanding, origination with the penetration of abandoning, cessation with the achievement of realisation and the path with the achievement of development. Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths; and penetration; and penetration by hearing only in regard to two.



Herein, two truths are profound because of being difficult to see, and two are difficult to see on account of being profound. For the Truth of Suffering is evident once it arises because one has to say: 'Ah, the pain!' in respect of encounters with stumps and thorns, etc.; and origination is evident once it arises as desire to chew, desire to eat, and so on. But as to the penetration of their characteristics, both are profound; accordingly these are profound because of being difficult to see. But the work for seeing the other two is like extending the hand for the purpose of seizing the summit of existence, like extending the foot for the purpose of seizing [the hell called] Avicii, like the placing (pa.tipaadana.m) end to end of a hair split a hundred times. Accordingly these are difficult to see because of being profound. Thus this passage 'knowledge concerning suffering', etc. is stated with reference to the arising of knowledge in the prior stage by learning etc. in regard to the four truths which are profound because they are difficult to see and difficult to see because they are profound. But at the moment of penetration the knowledge is only one."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote: . . .
Thank you. I do not, however, see anything in either Buddhaghosa or the Buddha quotes of both msgs that would support your position that you outline in this msg: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p228510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, your postings do not really answer my question -- that I can see -- about the arising of wisdom.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

your question was "how does one deepen wisdom?"
daverupa gave us this sutta on the first page of this thread:
You might be thinking of the Ghosa Sutta:
"
Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
right view is a synonym for wisdom.
in the citation from the samohavinodani above it says:
Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths;
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

a bit more regarding how to deepen wisdom:
When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment...>

Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered


and

M II, no 95, Cankiisutta.

<http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ma-Nikaya/
Majjhima2/095-canki-e1.html >

'Good Gotama, now, I know the realising of the truth. How is this attained? Good Gotama, teach me that attainment and realization.'

'Bharadvàja, practising, developing and making much of those same things lead to the realization of the truth. I declare that the realization of the truth is this much.'

'Good Gotama, now I know the realising of the truth. What things are of much help for realising the truth?'

'Bharadvàja, the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth. If not for the fourfold endeavour, the realisation of the truth is not. Therefore the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth.'

'Good Gotama, for the fourfold endeavour, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, weighing [1] is of much help for the fourfold endeavour. Without the weighing there is no fourfold effort, therefore weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour.'

'Good Gotama, for weighing, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, struggling [2] is of much help for weighing. Without that struggle there is no weighing, therefore that struggle is of much help for weighing'

'Good Gotama, for struggling, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, interest, is of much help for struggling. Without that interest, there is no struggle, therefore that interest is of much help for struggling.'

'Good Gotama, for interest, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, rightful speculation [3] is of much help for interest. Without the rightful speculating mind, there is no interest, therefore the rightful speculative mind is of much help for interest.'

'Good Gotama, for a rightful speculative mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, examining the meanings in the Teaching, is of much help for a rightful speculative mind. Without that examining of meanings in the Teaching, there is norightful speculation, therefore examining
meanings in the Teaching is of much help for a speculative mind.'

'Good Gotama, for examining meanings in the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, bearing the Teaching in the mind, is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching. Without bearing the Teaching in mind, there is no examination of meanings, therefore bearing the Teaching in mind is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for bearing the Teaching in the mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind. Without listening to the Teaching, there is no bearing of the Teaching, therefore listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind.'

'Good Gotama, for listening to the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching. Without lending ear there is no listening to the Teaching, therefore, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for lending ear, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, associating, is of much help for lending ear. Without association there is no lending ears, therefore associating is of much help for lending ear.'

'Good Gotama, for associating, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, approaching, is of much help for associating Without an approach there is no association, therefore approaching is of much help for associating.'

'Good Gotama, for approaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, faith, is of much help for approaching Without faith there is no approaching, therefore faith is of much help for approaching.'...

[1] Weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour (padhànassa kho bharadvàja tulanà bahukàrà). The fourfold endeavours are pushing the mind forward earnestly, to dispel arisen demerit to promote non arising of not arisen demerit To promote the arising of not arisen merit and to see the development and completion of arisen merit. For this kind of mental work to happen, we should mentally weigh our activities by body speech and mind. We should be aware of the activities at the six doors of mental contact.

[2] Struggling is of much help for weighing (tulanàya kho bharadvàja ussàho bahukàro hoti). This is a mental struggle. It consists of thinking and pondering to sort out the correct and comes to be right thinking.

[3] Right speculation is of much help for interest (chandassa kho Bharadvàja dhammanijjhànakhanti bahukàrà). Right speculation falls to the category of right thinking. So this is falling to the Noble Eightfold path, with right view at the foremost.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:your question was "how does one deepen wisdom?"
daverupa gave us this sutta on the first page of this thread:
You might be thinking of the Ghosa Sutta:
"
Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
right view is a synonym for wisdom.
in the citation from the samohavinodani above it says:
Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths;
Yes; however, all this can be easily interpreted differently than you are suggesting. In other words I do not see anything that is unquestionably definitive in supporting your position. I shrug my shoulders. I shall step back and let others see what they can in all this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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