"the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by danieLion »

What do the behaviors of "setting down words" and "interpreting meanings" look like to the average observer? Please include in your description what they look like when done "badly" and and what they look like when done "well." In other words, four behavioral descriptions.
alan...
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by alan... »

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"?
yes
alan... wrote:if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.
You and Kim O'Hara. It has nothing to do with the clergy or Christians.
rev·er·end
adjective \ˈrev-rənd, ˈre-və-; ˈre-vərnd\
Definition of REVEREND
1: worthy of reverence : revered

see also: The use of "Bhante"
you are absolutely correct. the same is true of many words. there are countless words that could be used for multiple things but usually are not as it creates confusion. if i wrote "ajahn vijju teaches near me." everyone would assume he is a buddhist teacher, but since the word literally means "teacher" i could just be talking about a college teacher of history or something so i wouldn't use "ajahn" in that way unless talking about a buddhist teacher to avoid confusion. as it is i have had "satipatthana" by analayo on my bookshelf right at my elbow every time you mentioned him but i was convinced you were talking about someone else lol!

the same goes for different traditions, it would be confusing to say "ajahn sheng yen", it's appropriate, he is a teacher of buddhism but this would make people think he is in the thai tradition when he is chinese chan (or taiwanese). yes the word fits but makes it confusing. i realize these words are of different languages but on this forum it's an appropriate example as people on here use these titles before teachers names to differentiate between traditions, and of course to show respect, so for many on here they are known words that are not used interchangeably. so it's a contrast similar to "reverend" and "bhikkhu".

certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it. out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by danieLion »

alan... wrote:certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it.
What's the opposite of "literal"?
alan... wrote:out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?
I neither know (I recall Bikkhu and maybe Ven.) nor care. I trust that if I ever have the chance to communicate with him and refer to him as Reverend he won't care either. And if for some strange reason contrary to what I know about him he's uptight or a jerk about it, and actually does care, I'll re-assess at that time.
alan...
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by alan... »

danieLion wrote:
alan... wrote:certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it.
What's the opposite of "literal"?
alan... wrote:out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?
I neither know (I recall Bikkhu and maybe Ven.) nor care. I trust that if I ever have the chance to communicate with him and refer to him as Reverend he won't care either. And if for some strange reason contrary to what I know about him he's uptight or a jerk about it, and actually does care, I'll re-assess at that time.
opposite of literal would be... "ambiguous" perhaps?

surely he wouldn't care. however i imagine if he was walking down a crowded street and you were a block behind him and yelled "reverend" he wouldn't turn, but "bhikkhu" or "venerable" would likely catch his ear. oh well, it doesn't matter anyway. thanks for the patient responses :smile: .
daverupa
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by daverupa »

alan... wrote:opposite of literal would be...
...figurative.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Tom
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Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by Tom »

ccharles wrote:From Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 2.20:
“Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? [59] Badly set down words and phrases and badly interpreted meaning.238 When the words and phrases are badly set down, the meaning is badly interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. “Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? Well-set down words and phrases and well-interpreted meaning.239 When the words and phrases are well set down, the meaning is well interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma.”
Are there any sutta references to what it means to set down words and phrases well?
alan...
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: "the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

Post by alan... »

ccharles wrote:
ccharles wrote:From Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 2.20:
“Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? [59] Badly set down words and phrases and badly interpreted meaning.238 When the words and phrases are badly set down, the meaning is badly interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. “Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? Well-set down words and phrases and well-interpreted meaning.239 When the words and phrases are well set down, the meaning is well interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma.”
Are there any sutta references to what it means to set down words and phrases well?
i really am fairly confident that this sutta quote is talking about oral tradition. that's it. it's all about remembering and transmitting the texts properly verbally from person to person. what are you taking from it? why the concern?
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