No morality in opposing abortion

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Mr Man
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No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:05 pm

"Let me be direct. When you say you are against abortion because it's sinful, it's not your morality talking, it's your misogyny.

In other words, you're not driven by compassion, but by a hate for women who you think stray from the "good girl" norms."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/332113/abortion-law-is-misogynistic-not-moralistic

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:01 pm

Mr Man wrote:"Let me be direct. When you say you are against abortion because it's sinful, it's not your morality talking, it's your misogyny.

In other words, you're not driven by compassion, but by a hate for women who you think stray from the "good girl" norms."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/332113/abortion-law-is-misogynistic-not-moralistic

and is that the only reason people are against abortion?
and what about women who do not support abortion in all cases?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby manas » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:17 am

Hi Mr Man,

you're not driven by compassion, but by a hate for women


that's a bit of an over-generalization, isn't it?

kind regards

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby SDC » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:27 am

Manas, Mr Man's entire post, aside from the link, is actually a quote from the article. Maybe you know that, but just in case you didn't see the end quotes.

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby perkele » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:34 am

manas wrote:Hi Mr Man,

you're not driven by compassion, but by a hate for women


that's a bit of an over-generalization, isn't it?

kind regards


I guess that's the point Mr. Man wanted to bring across.

But as Cittasanto noticed,
and is that the only reason people are against abortion?

the expectable reaction to that is also an over-generalization.

Stereotyping sterotypes, dangerous terrain, causing wars around the world, in the big scope and the small.

I expect not much good coming from this topic. Let's be careful.

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby cooran » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:40 am

Having worked for many years as a government employee in maternity wards, antenatal clinics, birth suites as a counsellor, I often found difficulty in working with what is legal in this country (Australia) and keeping the Precepts. I found the best way was to provide a patient requesting abortion information with information on abortion clinics, foster care, and adoption without showing a preference or an antipathy towards any of the options. The decision was then theirs to make. It is legal in this country to have an abortion under 20 weeks gestation.

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:42 am

perkele wrote:
and is that the only reason people are against abortion?

the expectable reaction to that is also an over-generalization.

Stereotyping sterotypes, dangerous terrain, causing wars around the world, in the big scope and the small.

I expect not much good coming from this topic. Let's be careful.

what expected reaction?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:21 am

I thought the article was interesting for a couple of reason - I think morality and authority + there relationship are interesting subjects for consideration. I also thought it was interesting because it was from a Thai newspaper.

The opening two sentences are thought provoking and almost provocative.

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby perkele » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:34 am

Cittasanto wrote:what expected reaction?

One expectable reaction better, which I thought you were rightly cautioning against, namely that people will first start to only argue for and against that same stance: "People are against abortion only out of misogyny."

You provided a first possible alternative:
Cittasanto wrote:and what about women who do not support abortion in all cases?


And step by step one can argue back and forth about more diversified and refined over-generalizations as well, taking into account many points of view to argue back and forth from there, and that's how it usually goes, without most people realizing that they have personally little to do with that subject, even though they engaged in that discussion with good intentions first to stop the over-generalizations. That's all I meant to say in a less overt way. I thought that's how it usually easily goes, and I wanted to caution against that. Sorry if I was not very clear.

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Sokehi » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:33 pm

An abortion is none of my business as long as it's not my baby. If it ain't my baby it's not me who is in the right position to judge.


I'd suggest that's the best solution to this "debate".
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby plwk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:44 pm

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it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:15 pm

Actually those two separate questions correlate to the two separate lines in the OP.
perkele wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:what expected reaction?

One expectable reaction better, which I thought you were rightly cautioning against, namely that people will first start to only argue for and against that same stance: "People are against abortion only out of misogyny."

You provided a first possible alternative:
Cittasanto wrote:and what about women who do not support abortion in all cases?


And step by step one can argue back and forth about more diversified and refined over-generalizations as well, taking into account many points of view to argue back and forth from there, and that's how it usually goes, without most people realizing that they have personally little to do with that subject, even though they engaged in that discussion with good intentions first to stop the over-generalizations. That's all I meant to say in a less overt way. I thought that's how it usually easily goes, and I wanted to caution against that. Sorry if I was not very clear.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby perkele » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:51 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Actually those two separate questions correlate to the two separate lines in the OP.

Ah, I see.
Whatever.
I think it's getting ever more unlikely that other people are able to follow our communication anymore. I am quite challenged here myself at least. And it's quite irrelevant anyway. I beg you pardon.
So let's better leave it at that. :smile:

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:08 pm

perkele wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Actually those two separate questions correlate to the two separate lines in the OP.

Ah, I see.
Whatever.
I think it's getting ever more unlikely that other people are able to follow our communication anymore. I am quite challenged here myself at least. And it's quite irrelevant anyway. I beg you pardon.
So let's better leave it at that. :smile:

I didn't realise there was a specific communication, or that others were following.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby perkele » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:14 pm

Cittasanto wrote:I didn't realise there was a specific communication, or that others were following.

This being a discussion board, the point of it would be communication, I thought. And it should be relevant, and in a way that people can follow it.
Your last post in response to mine didn't seem to be relevant and I had difficulty understanding its purpose. No bad intentions. Still we are off-topic. Not that I want to go on-topic here anyway, but I'll leave it at that and go to my planet. May the force be with you!

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby SDC » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:47 pm

What are you two talking about? :shrug: :tongue:

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby manas » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:56 pm

SDC wrote:What are you two talking about? :shrug: :tongue:


Before your particular confusion gets resolved, SDC, I will quickly explain that, I did not notice the quotation marks around the original post (possibly due to my significantly challenged eyesight), but that I now know that it was just a quote from the article, and not Mr Man's opinion as such...

There's one thing resolved, anyway :P
:anjali:

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby SDC » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:38 pm

manas wrote:Before your particular confusion gets resolved, SDC, I will quickly explain that, I did not notice the quotation marks around the original post (possibly due to my significantly challenged eyesight), but that I now know that it was just a quote from the article, and not Mr Man's opinion as such...

There's one thing resolved, anyway :P
:anjali:


:smile: Haha...you know the only reason I pointed it out is because at first I thought the same thing you did, so don't blame your eyesight completely.

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:01 pm

Slightly related - just came accross this "Australia PM Julia Gillard prompts 'misogyny' definition update" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19973687

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby manas » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:11 am

Mr Man wrote:Slightly related - just came accross this "Australia PM Julia Gillard prompts 'misogyny' definition update" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19973687


While we're at it, perhaps we should also revise the definition of 'election promise' to actually mean, 'something we might do, or not do, once we get into office - if it suits us at the time' :tongue:

On a more serious note, however, I must admit that I also thought that 'misogyny' could also just mean 'dislike' rather than 'pathological hatred', which is much more extreme. But should we be redefining a word to be in line with it's misuse?


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