No morality in opposing abortion

A place to discuss casual topics amongst spiritual friends.
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by SDC »

What are you two talking about? :shrug: :tongue:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by manas »

SDC wrote:What are you two talking about? :shrug: :tongue:


Before your particular confusion gets resolved, SDC, I will quickly explain that, I did not notice the quotation marks around the original post (possibly due to my significantly challenged eyesight), but that I now know that it was just a quote from the article, and not Mr Man's opinion as such...

There's one thing resolved, anyway :P
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by SDC »

manas wrote:Before your particular confusion gets resolved, SDC, I will quickly explain that, I did not notice the quotation marks around the original post (possibly due to my significantly challenged eyesight), but that I now know that it was just a quote from the article, and not Mr Man's opinion as such...

There's one thing resolved, anyway :P
:anjali:
:smile: Haha...you know the only reason I pointed it out is because at first I thought the same thing you did, so don't blame your eyesight completely.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by Mr Man »

Slightly related - just came accross this "Australia PM Julia Gillard prompts 'misogyny' definition update" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19973687
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by manas »

Mr Man wrote:Slightly related - just came accross this "Australia PM Julia Gillard prompts 'misogyny' definition update" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19973687
While we're at it, perhaps we should also revise the definition of 'election promise' to actually mean, 'something we might do, or not do, once we get into office - if it suits us at the time' :tongue:

On a more serious note, however, I must admit that I also thought that 'misogyny' could also just mean 'dislike' rather than 'pathological hatred', which is much more extreme. But should we be redefining a word to be in line with it's misuse?
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:Slightly related - just came accross this "Australia PM Julia Gillard prompts 'misogyny' definition update" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19973687
I see wiki already has the definition and miriam webster just uses hatred as does collins and the american heritage dictionary.

I think words such as these aren't fixed in the sand. look at racist attitudes over the years, what was considered acceptable is now considered racist.

I wonder is they are going to redefine misandry to be in line with it?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4210
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: USA West Coast

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Philosophical argument is not the same as knowing exactly how an abortion is performed.

This doctor performed over 1000 abortions, so he is qualified to describe, with video, just how they are done.

Some pro-choice people, after viewing the D&E video changed their minds to pro-life.

http://www.abortionprocedures.com
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by Modus.Ponens »

I'm pro choice because I'm a secularist, so I don't think I have the right to impose my spiritual values on others given that I have no evidence supporting spiritual realities. And also because when something is inevitably going to happen, it's better for it to happen in safety. Abortion and drugs are two examples of this.

But I don't see misogyny here. The people who are against abortion, typically devout christians, are against it because human life is sacred to them. They speak of millions of babies murdered, and those who kill them _ the doctors, the women and the men who pressure women to do it. I've even heard the term Holocaust in relation to this.

Trying to frame this as misogyny is not intellectualy honest. Some pro life people may be misogynists. But what all of them actualy have in common is the underlying belief that when an abortion is done, a human soul is murdered. The revulsion they feel against this is why they are pro life. The differences between the two camps are largely about different views on wether the world is strictly material or not. Hate is not the is not the issue here.

Lack of compassion is not the same as hate. Indifference is somewhere in between the extremes of compassion and hate. Misogyny is one of those terms that are losing its meaning and effectiveness. Just like ill informed overuse of antibiotics creates super resistent bugs that may be hostile, ill informed overuse of the word misogyny will create a groups of people that are imune to it and may actually be hostile to women.
For example, Trump.

Use your antibiotics responsibly, lest it backfires in the long run.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4210
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: USA West Coast

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Too coin a phrase: 'A video is worth 10,000 words.'
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by samseva »

Will wrote:Philosophical argument is not the same as knowing exactly how an abortion is performed.

This doctor performed over 1000 abortions, so he is qualified to describe, with video, just how they are done.

Some pro-choice people, after viewing the D&E video changed their minds to pro-life.

http://www.abortionprocedures.com
So basically, first and second trimester abortions are done by ripping the baby piece by piece while it is still alive, either by using a metal instrument or a vacuum.

In the third trimester, of which the baby could live if the mother were to give birth prematurely, abortionists inject a lethal poison, anywhere on the baby's body such as injecting the needle right into its skull, to kill it.

Shocking.
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by chownah »

Will wrote:Too coin a phrase: 'A video is worth 10,000 words.'
If by "worth" you mean the ability to elicit a strong emotional response then for most people you are correct. If you mean the ability to help people to discern the way things really are then it is probably a toss up beteen video and words.....with words having a slight edge in that words usually do not so strongly make us a pawn to our emotions.
chownah
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4210
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: USA West Coast

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

chownah wrote:
Will wrote:Too coin a phrase: 'A video is worth 10,000 words.'
If by "worth" you mean the ability to elicit a strong emotional response then for most people you are correct. If you mean the ability to help people to discern the way things really are then it is probably a toss up beteen video and words.....with words having a slight edge in that words usually do not so strongly make us a pawn to our emotions.
chownah
The site also has words in the videos, plus interviews with an abortion doctor (he uses words).
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by chownah »

Will wrote:
chownah wrote:
Will wrote:Too coin a phrase: 'A video is worth 10,000 words.'
If by "worth" you mean the ability to elicit a strong emotional response then for most people you are correct. If you mean the ability to help people to discern the way things really are then it is probably a toss up beteen video and words.....with words having a slight edge in that words usually do not so strongly make us a pawn to our emotions.
chownah
The site also has words in the videos, plus interviews with an abortion doctor (he uses words).
I am not sure how your response is a comment on what I posted.

Which do you think creates a stronger emotional response, the visual part or the words?
chownah
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4210
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: USA West Coast

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

chownah, Emotions were not my point, just concision, which a picture brings compared to a description.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Post by Mr Man »

The original link to the article in the OP no longer works. Here is a new link if any one is interested in reading the article

http://www.bangkokpost.com/print/332113/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.
Post Reply