The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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equilibrium
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby equilibrium » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
equilibrium wrote:
robertk wrote:Is there a conventional self who decides?
Conventional self is the same as a deluded self, a self that is fabricated by wrong views.....all based on believe supported by the deluded mind.
A decision can be made either one is deluded or not. As the mind is deluded, one cannot be certain ones decisions are right.
It is a rather interesting question. If we are deluded, having to start from where we are, a state of delusion, how do we get undeluded all the while having to deal with a deluded mind, having to deal with a deluded sense of self?

One must be deluded unless one has reached Nibbana and beyond, even then, there are still traces of delusion left until one is a fully enlightened Buddha.
Should one achieve Nibbana (Arahart) one is no longer deluded as such, well, enough for one to escape samsara that is.....so the deluded mind needs to get undeluded.

When we say delusion/ignorance, the mind is simply not knowing.....so the mind needs to know something so to escape, this is where the teaching comes in.
Yet the teaching is only just a tool, a purpose.....so the mind can realize for itself reality. This reality must replace what the mind previously believed so the mind itself no longer do things which are deluded.
One cannot be undeluded if there is no realization in the mind as it is the mind that needs to be set free.

It must be a constant battle while one tries to learn from the teaching while the same time, the deluded self is having its own opinions.....so we need to be mindful that these opinions are nothing but self created fabrications which cannot be trusted on.
Maybe we should rely on the teaching and the N8P to keep us being right.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:39 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote: . . .
Excellent choice of suttas to illustrate difference between the unawakened and awakened.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

danieLion
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby danieLion » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:11 am

Tilt, RobertK, et al
Which "side" shall we put Gil Fronsdal on?
Self and Not-Self
You can do it! It's only a ten minute talk.

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:40 am

Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or defined.

Polabuddhist
This is rather unorthodox and I think not classical Buddhist. Perhaps you could begin a new thread in another forum to discuss these ideas.

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robertk
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Re: is there a conventional self who decides?

Postby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:41 am

danieLion wrote:Tilt, RobertK, et al
Which "side" shall we put Gil Fronsdal on?
Self and Not-Self
You can do it! It's only a ten minute talk.

10 minutes is time I don't have. Could you cite the important parts.

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:
equilibrium wrote:
robertk wrote:Is there a conventional self who decides?
Conventional self is the same as a deluded self, a self that is fabricated by wrong views.....all based on believe supported by the deluded mind.
A decision can be made either one is deluded or not. As the mind is deluded, one cannot be certain ones decisions are right.
It is a rather interesting question. If we are deluded, having to start from where we are, a state of delusion, how do we get undeluded all the while having to deal with a deluded mind, having to deal with a deluded sense of self?

In the cariyapitaka atthakatthaka, translated by bhilkhu bodhi p. 271
It stresses khanti, patience and links this to wisdom:

".
..And: 'When there is patience, the mind becomes concentrated, all formations appear to reflection as impermanent and suffering; all dhammas as not-self, nibbaana as unconditioned, deathless, peaceful, and sublime, and the Buddha-qualities as endowed with inconceivable and immearsurable potency. Then established in acquiescence in conformity, the groundlessness of all 'I-making' and 'mine-making' becomes evident to reflection thus: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever.'..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:56 am

robertk wrote:In the cariyapitaka atthakatthaka, translated by bhilkhu bodhi p. 271
This is a stand alone translation? I'd like to look at what comes before and after the the bit you've quoted, but even that does not support this utterly astounding msg: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15952&start=60#p228510
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:21 am

"And: 'When there is patience, the mind becomes concentrated, all formations appear to reflection as impermanent and suffering; all dhammas as not-self, nibbaana as unconditioned, deathless, peaceful, and sublime, and the Buddha-qualities as endowed with inconceivable and immearsurable potency. Then established in acquiescence in conformity, the groundlessness of all 'I-making' and 'mine-making' becomes evident to reflection thus: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever.'..."


Bh. Bodhi's Brahmajaala Sutta
and its Commentaries, p. 271)

http://books.google.com/books?id=6ym-vC ... ar&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Page 283 in the 1978 version, which I have. What preceeds the "And:" -- the context of the statement is: If, due to it cumulative force, anger caused by the wrongs of others should continue to overpower the mind, one should reflect: In otherwords this is a reflection, a way of altering a situation, conditions, a type of practice and it is part of a larger body of practices.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby polarbear101 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:25 am

robertk wrote:
Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or defined.

Polabuddhist
This is rather unorthodox and I think not classical Buddhist. Perhaps you could begin a new thread in another forum to discuss these ideas.


What's the orthodox interpretation?
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:26 am

The Atthasalini, (triplets p451)defines "ignorant average man" as:
QUOTE

Expositor

"For to whoever owing to the absense of learning by heart and deduction therefrom regarding the khandas(aggregates) elements(dhatus) sense-organs(ayatanas) the causal mode, the applications of mindfulness etc there is NO attainment of that learning which represses opinionativeness, nor any access, owing to the non-attainment of what should be attained by conduct. Such a person, from the absense of such access and such attainment should be known as ignorant"

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:30 am

The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the
Abhidhammattha
Vibhavani explains why the Buddha taught so extensively in many different ways.

"
There are people who like short explanations, there
are people who
like explanations of medium length, and there are
people who like
detailed explanations. Those among the different
groups who are slow in
understanding as regards mentality can understand
realities as
explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality
is classified by
way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way.
Those who are slow
in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa)
can understand
realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five
senses and the
five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are
åyatanas. As to
dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus
in this
classification rúpa has been explained more
extensively. Those who are
slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can
understand realities
as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in
this
classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained
in detail."


We see the differences in beings also explained in the suttas>

Anguttara nikaya, Book of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS)

"Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four?

He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)= sankhepa~n~nu]: he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)= vitthaarita~n~nu]: he who has to be led on (by instruction)[neyyo=netabba]: he who has just the word (of the text) at most [padaparamo=vya~njana- padam eva parama.n assa, one who learns by heart, is word-perfect but without understanding it]. These are the four."


At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. The extremely wise types with high accumulations of parami called Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu are now extinct. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We, at this time, - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details so we have to study and consider a great deal as a condition for understanding. From Ledi sayadaw
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm

QUOTE
Ledi sayadaw.""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual whoキ encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse.

(2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who キ encounters a Buddha in person, but キ who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length.

At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain.

(3) A Neyya : an individual who needs キ to study the sermon and the exposition, and then キ to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher.

(4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. "" --
Robert

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Paul Davy
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:32 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:In the cariyapitaka atthakatthaka, translated by bhilkhu bodhi p. 271
This is a stand alone translation? I'd like to look at what comes before and after the the bit you've quoted, but even that does not support this utterly astounding msg: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:?:

It seems Robert was providing on-topic information directly pertaining to your question, "If we are deluded, having to start from where we are, a state of delusion, how do we get undeluded all the while having to deal with a deluded mind, having to deal with a deluded sense of self?"

...not trying to substantiate comments he made previously in different topics (i.e. off-topic)?

It seemed a good answer to me.

:coffee:

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'.
(Snp 3.6)

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:35 am

robertk wrote: . . .
All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:37 am

In case anyone thinks i mean that simply reading the texts is right practice I should add that pARIYATTi is hearing and considering Dhamma with wise attention. And this leads to pattipati which is the gradual approaching of understanding realties directly.

The right intellectual understanding, if firm enough, sets the foundation for the gradual confirmation in daily life of what has been learnt .
So right now there is seeing, color, sound, feelings...they are inescapable yet for the ignorant they are passed over without any insight While for the one who is beginning to learn directly they are a new world of treasure

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15952&start=60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.

I am giving some quotes to show the crucial role of learning in the development of wisdom, and how the path is about such development.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:02 am

robertk wrote:In case anyone thinks i mean that simply reading the texts is right practice I should add that pARIYATTi is hearing and considering Dhamma with wise attention. And this leads to pattipati which is the gradual approaching of understanding realties directly.

The right intellectual understanding, if firm enough, sets the foundation for the gradual confirmation of what has been learnt in 'real' life.
So right now there is seeing, color, sound, feelings...they are inescapable yet for the ignorant they are passed over without any insight While for the one who is beginning to learn directly they are a new world of treasure
Nothing at all wrong with right intellectual practice as part of one's practice, But meditation practice, with the idea that it would be a direct help to cultivate wisdom you have blatantly dismissed as at attachment to rules and rituals, which is an extremely dramatic departure from how, it would seem, most people here view such practice of Dhamma. If I am not understanding you, please clarify your stance and correct my misunderstranding.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:06 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.

I am giving some quotes to show the crucial role of learning in the development of wisdom, and how the path is about such development.
Okay, but I wonder if they, in their fuller contexts, would support this statement of yours: "It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa." I don't think the suttas do.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:07 am

retrofuturist wrote: . . .
Whatever he is trying to say here is far less than clear, and it really does not address the issue of going from a deluded mind to a non-deluded mind. Obviously, I must be a thick as a block of lead.


    Samyutta Nikaya III 144: "Bhikkhus [monks, the Buddha said, holding a fleck of dung], if even if that much of permanent, everlasting, eternal individual selfhood/metaphysical being [attabhava], not inseparable from the idea of change, could be found, then this living the holy life could not be taught by me."
What is interesting here to me is that change is possible because there is no attabhava. By our choices we can alter our conditioning, changing the course of our trajectory through life, which what the Buddha's teachings seem to me to be about. In other words, being deluded need not be an eternal prison, and that the "sense of self," with which by necessity of our ignorance we have to contend, is not a permanent block to awakening. Bit by bit we alter our conditioning by our choices, by what we do and don't do.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:42 am

Dear tilt
For practically anyone who is involved in a 'spiritual' path silabataparamasa is almost certain to appear from the very very gross down to very subtle (albeit still virulent).
An example of extreme silabataparamasa: last week I was taking a taxi to the airport in Kathmandu. We were outside the city on some jungle path (seriously) when the driver stops. After a minute I asked what the holdup was.
" did you see the cat sir"
Yes?
"We have to wait until another car comes"
Umm why?
"Very dangerous for you sir, you are going on a long trip"
WTF?
He wouldn't move so we waited 5 minutes or more until a motorbike came along...

But what is amazing is how utterly sure he was of this existential danger and its cure.
We Buddhists think such rituals are ridiculously silly, but still we are not immune to more subtle types.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:58 am

robertk wrote:Dear tilt
For practically anyone who is involved in a 'spiritual' path silabataparamasa is almost certain to appear from the very very gross down to very subtle (albeit still virulent).
You just got done equating sitting meditation of having no more significance in one's "spiritual" practice than choosing which sandwich shop to go to. The issue is not the ritual itself. It is our attitude towards it, our expectation of it, that is the problem with ritual, but let us look at your statement:

It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.


It is hard not to read this as a flat, straight forward dismissal of sitting practice itself. Maybe you were really tired when you wrote this and you really do not mean to dismiss meditation practice as a direct way of cultivating the factors giving rise to wisdom/insight. You tell me what you mean here, if you mean something other than how this quote seems to plainly read.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723


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