After all, what would make it be a religion?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Sekha
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After all, what would make it be a religion?

Post by Sekha »

I fully agree with the views of Goenkaji, it's just as if he would express my own thoughts:
Great misconception has arisen in the name of Buddha and his teaching. (...) He was not the founder of any religion. He never founded any religion. When one goes through the words, original words of Buddha, (...) we find he never taught buddhism. He did not convert a single person as buddhist. More than 50 000 pages of his original words, commentaries, subcommentaries, which are now on a CD-ROM, and a search program is there, the word ‘boddh’ is missing.

No buddhism. No buddhist. He taught Dhamma, that is Dharma. He called his followers dhammiko, dharmic. If it was boddha dhamma, then it would have been limited to a particular community, a particular sect. But Dhamma is for all, not limited to a particular community, a particular sect, and he taught Dhamma. Hundreds of years after Buddha, the word Bauddh was never used (...) after that, we don’t know, after how many centuries these words buddhism and buddhist came into use.

To me, these words degraded Buddha’s teaching, devalued Buddha’s teaching. The teaching is universal, for one and all. And when it has come up in its true meaning, true practice, people are willingly accepting it. There is no religion today in there world, no religion whose followers are not attending vipassana courses.
--- Transcripted from the discourse Buddha: the super-scientist at IIT Powai, Mumbai
The video is available here: http://www.vridhamma.org/StreamingPlayV ... -Scientist" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What would be your reasons to acknowledge/reject those assertions?
Last edited by Sekha on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Avoiding words like "Buddhism," "Buddhist," "Converting," or "Religion," are mere sophistry to avoid turning off Hindus or others who are attached to their religion, to atheism, or to views of any kind.

If you have firm confidence that the Dhamma was well-taught by the Blessed One, who was Fully Enlightened by his own efforts, and well understood by those Noble Ones who practised his teaching properly, then you are a disciple of the Buddha, or a Buddhist.

Taking refuge in the Dhamma only, without acknowledging the origin of that teaching, or the possibility of others penetrating and realising that teaching, just makes for half-hearted commitment to the teachings and practice.

That doesn't mean that no one can set foot on the path without having the confidence to call themselves a Buddhist or even a "closet Buddhist." However, if their well-placed confidence is followed up by sincere and ardent practice and/or study, they will not be ashamed to call themselves a Buddhist, or a follow of the Buddha.
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Kim OHara
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Kim OHara »

Hi, Sekha,
Most Westerners, I think, would contrast "religion" with "philosophy", "rationalism" or "science". When we do that, Buddhism as practised in traditionally Buddhist countries (and mostly as practised in the West) doesn't fit neatly in any single category.
Religion is typically devotional, science isn't: devotional practices are common in Buddhism but are not encouraged in the suttas.
Science is always open to debate and improvement, religion isn't: many Buddhists would say that the suttas are the first and last authority.
Science is systematic and analytical, religion is mystical and non-rational: Buddhism has elements of both.
... and so on.

However, I have to say that Goenkaji's arguments for the non-religiosity of Buddhism are fairly weak. Saying that the word "Buddhism" (or any related word) was not part of the dharma is no proof that the teachings didn't add up to "Buddhism" in the religious sense. As we say around here, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. :thinking:
[Edit: this is just another away of saying what Bhikku Pesala has just said, "Avoiding words like "Buddhism," "Buddhist," "Converting," or "Religion," are mere sophistry..." ]

:namaste:
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Sekha
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Sekha »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:if their well-placed confidence is followed up by sincere and ardent practice and/or study, they will not be ashamed to call themselves a Buddhist, or a follow of the Buddha.
well in my case I have no problem stating that I am a follower of the Buddha's teaching, but I don't consider it equivalent to being a buddhist, nor do I wish to be recognized as such. From what I have seen in many places, religion results in dogmatism, and attachment to rituals over earnest and continuous practice. And as Goenkaji rightly points out, declaring that the Buddha's teaching is a religion prevents a lot of people to just lend the first ear to what he says, which could be just enough for some of them to start being convinced.
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Sekha »

Kim O'Hara wrote:As we say around here, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. :thinking:
well, this amounts to state that what seems to be in a particular way should be considered as actually being that way. So if I apply this to the self, there seems to be a self, since I can move my limbs just as I want, so there probably is a self.. Sorry, but this argument is obviously invalid
Kim O'Hara wrote: [Edit: this is just another away of saying what Bhikku Pesala has just said, "Avoiding words like "Buddhism," "Buddhist," "Converting," or "Religion," are mere sophistry..." ]
for me, not considering the teaching of the Buddha as a religion goes way beyond this. It implies being able to have a non-sectarian and above all non-dogmatic and critical approach to what we are told, which results in being able to question for example the authenticity of the buddhist scriptures, the validity of the theories developed in the commentaries etc.

What I see is that buddhists pretend to follow the Kalama sutta, but in practice 1) they consider what their instructor says as the truth without making any cross-investigation 2) they get angry when the neophytes start questioning the validity of whatever that instructor says. I have to say however I have also seen this attitude in teachers appointed by Goenka.
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I think many sceptics misinterpret what is said in the Kesamutti Sutta. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote a much more thorough article on it. A Look at the Kalama Sutta

On converting followers of other religions, see the Upāli Sutta.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Ben »

Sayagi U Ba Khin had no problem saying that he taught Buddhism, nor did Saya Thetgyi, nor Ledi Sayadaw. Ostensibly SN Goenka teaches within the same tradition. The Burmese consider what he teaches as garden-variety Theravada and when one applies to the Govt of Myanmar for a religious visa, one is instructed to indicate that one's purpose is to practice Theravada meditation.

My take on it, after being a student to SN Goenka for 27+ years, is that what he is advocating is skilful means designed for those who may be leary of organized religion or so deeply attached to their own religious or atheistic views that it becomes a barrier for them to pick up the practice.
Unfortunately, many of SN Goenka's students, most notably newly-minted "old students", take on board his "secular" message uncritically and do not understand that "not Buddhist" is as much a label, as much an artefact of conceit, as the label "Buddhist".
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I remember meeting Ajahn Sumedho when Ajahn Chah first came to the UK, which was before I ordained. I asked Ajahn Sumedho whether he thought Buddhism was a religion, expecting him to say that it was not because there is no God, etc. He replied that he thought it was, which deflated me completely. Looking for a debate, and finding that there's nothing there to dispute with. It all depends what you think a religion is, and you can label the Buddha's teaching in whatever way you want — its still the same universal truth about the ways things are — impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self.

If you're devout, you may call it a religion.
If you're intellectual, you may call it a philosophy.
If you're a pragmatist, you may call it a way of life.

Whatever you call it, it is the teaching of the Buddha, so I call it Buddhism, but with the caveat that there may be many teachings going by the name of "Buddhism," which are, in fact, derived from Hinduism or other sources, and are not the true teaching of the Buddha. Our job is to sort out the wood from the trees, not to argue about what name to give it.
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by daverupa »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: I call it Buddhism, but with the caveat that there may be many teachings going by the name of "Buddhism," which are, in fact, derived from Hinduism or other sources, and are not the true teaching of the Buddha. Our job is to sort out the wood from the trees, not to argue about what name to give it.
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Mr Man »

For me the religion aspect is the form. and this is what has allowed the teaching to travel from the time of the Buddha to our present day.
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Sekha »

Ben wrote:what he is advocating is skilful means designed for those who may be leary of organized religion or so deeply attached to their own religious or atheistic views that it becomes a barrier for them to pick up the practice. Unfortunately, many of SN Goenka's students, most notably newly-minted "old students", take on board his "secular" message uncritically and do not understand that "not Buddhist" is as much a label, as much an artefact of conceit, as the label "Buddhist".
Well, 1) I think Goenka includes himself in the first of your two categories and 2) as far as I am concerned I am fine with this idea about "labelism", too. But I am much better off in front of my family and former friends if I tell them I'm practicing an art of living rather than a religion, and that I don't necessarily agree to everything that buddhist leaders say and do. So there is a practical reason that goes beyond merely liking or disliking an idea.

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: It all depends what you think a religion is, and you can label the Buddha's teaching in whatever way you want — its still the same universal truth about the ways things are — impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self.

If you're devout, you may call it a religion.
If you're intellectual, you may call it a philosophy.
If you're a pragmatist, you may call it a way of life.
More or less agreed. But 1) those who belong to the second category may easily fall for ditthupadana, attachment to views. 2) the only successful practitioners belong to the third category. 3) those who belong to either of the first two will never get free from suffering unless they also belong to the third category. So the first two are not necessary at all, only the third one is important.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Whatever you call it, it is the teaching of the Buddha, so I call it Buddhism, but with the caveat that there may be many teachings going by the name of "Buddhism," which are, in fact, derived from Hinduism or other sources, and are not the true teaching of the Buddha. Our job is to sort out the wood from the trees, not to argue about what name to give it.
Well, given the state of confusion in which the world is at the moment, as you rightly refer to, I think it does help to make use of an appropriate terminology, and I think the Buddha has himself set the example in his teachings. To me the word buddhism carries too much of confusion. I don't want to be likened to those organisations whose members call themselves buddhists but actually refuse to accept any of the four noble truths (case of one of my friends).
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by ground »

What purpose does it serve to replace the term "buddhism" by the term "dhamma"? Actually there is a lot of religion in many suttas. On the other hand there are suttas which are not religious at all. So everyone may focus on what entails freedom from stress or at least reduction of stress. :sage:
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Coyote »

I personally don't think Buddhists should care what others think, as long as it is not actually misrepresenting the Dhamma. Whatever name you choose you are going to get lumped in with others who don't necessarily believe or practice the way you do. When talking to others, "Buddhism" does just fine as everyone knows what you are talking about, whether they have the right idea or not.
The "religion" aspect makes it clear than the Dhamma goes beyond philosophy and psychology, though it has those aspects, and into the "spirit"ual.
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Sekha »

ground wrote:What purpose does it serve to replace the term "buddhism" by the term "dhamma"?
buddhism is considered a sectarian word that repels those who do not want to get converted to a religion and yet want to practice the Dhamma to reach the end of suffering.
ground wrote: Actually there is a lot of religion in many suttas.
What do you mean exactly by that?
ground wrote:So everyone may focus on what entails freedom from stress or at least reduction of stress.
agreed. and that does not necessarily entail practicing a religion
Last edited by Sekha on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: After all, what would make this be a religion?

Post by Sekha »

Coyote wrote:everyone knows what you are talking about, whether they have the right idea or not.
well you are contradicting yourself in the same sentence, friend
Coyote wrote: The "religion" aspect makes it clear than the Dhamma goes beyond philosophy and psychology, though it has those aspects, and into the "spirit"ual.
yes but it also has a sectarian connotation that is not helpful. "Spiritual art of living" seems to me more appropriate
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