The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

SamKR wrote:
Who uses the tool and how in terms of ultimate realities? Only one citta at a time. If the citta is not accompanied by panna -right understanding, it is not the path. The path is not occuring if right view is not there.
The un-liberated being -- who listens and wisely considers the Buddha's Dhamma, who then acknowledges the complication, acknowledges the illusion of self, and acknowledges that he is stuck with this illusory sense of self (which is gradually becoming weaker due to his understanding and practice) until there is elimination of clinging by following the 8-fold path to the degree required.[/quote]

Dear Sam,

In reality, there's no one. At a given moment, either it is akusala citta with wrong view, akusala without wrong view, kusala without panna, kusala with panna seeing the danger of sensuous object, kusala with panna understanding realities as they are. Only the last kind of citta is the one that condition the Path. In our ordinary deluded mode, we mix up dhammas into situation and are unclear about what conditions what, hence the idea of accepting a "relative wrong view" in order to have right view later on. That's not correct. Forturnately, there the teaching in details which help us to see that we are most of the time in the ocean of akusala, and that the cultivation of the Path is most intricate...

Brgds,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
dhamma follower wrote:I should add here that intellectual understanding doesn't mean collecting knowledge. There needs to be the understanding of dhammas as they appear now as only dhammas, not self, again and again, by conditions.
That should be stressed, as it's a point at rarely comes through when discussions of this nature are had.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Dear Retro,

Indeed, it is a very important point. The Buddha taught the dhammas for us to understand whatever appears now correctly as no one, no self, only element arising by conditions. Only this present dhamma can be understood: seeing now, thinking now, etc....

Achaan Sujin stresses this again and again...

Brgds,
D.F
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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Well hopefully that answers the question of what a "daily practice" looks like then.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:
I should add here that intellectual understanding doesn't mean collecting knowledge. There needs to be the understanding of dhammas as they appear now as only dhammas, not self, again and again, by conditions.
I wonder if there is an assumption here that one must approach the Buddha's Teachings only from a standpoint of the Abhidhamma, and if that is the case, then the question is are we referring to the Abhidhamma Pitaka or the much later Abhidhammatthasangaha? Is the only way of talking about understanding limited to Abhidhamma style language, or can we get along quite well enough using sutta language?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:
Indeed, it is a very important point. The Buddha taught the dhammas for us to understand whatever appears now correctly as no one, no self, only element arising by conditions. Only this present dhamma can be understood: seeing now, thinking now, etc....

Achaan Sujin stresses this again and again...
Other than not restricting oneself to solely Abhidhamma style language, finding suttas language more than adequate, what Theravadin teacher says otherwise?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

dhamma follower wrote:If there's understanding of dhammas arising only by conditions, why there needs to be a formal practice? What kind of conditions does a formal practice provide for the arising of panna?
Concentration.
372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:If there's understanding of dhammas arising only by conditions, why there needs to be a formal practice? What kind of conditions does a formal practice provide for the arising of panna?
Concentration.
372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Concentration. Something which can be cultivated by practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:
Dear Tilt,

Cetana arises with all citta, as you must know. Cetana arises in both kusala and akusala cittas. Kusala kamma results in kusala vipaka. As for the arising of panna, it is not cetana that conditions it, but panna cetasika it-self -from hearing and understanding the rights words.

The conditions for the arising of panna have been discussed so far, and RobertK has provided a lot of canonical material about that, I don't see why we have to try to make up new ones? Btw, it is not my method's or anyone's. We are simply discussing what are in the texts. Don't you agree?
Robertk has presented a lot of commentarial material, and there is nothing wrong with that, but with that material he has also presented a very particular interpretation, which is fine; however, there is nothing compelling in robertk's expositions that would demand that I forgo viewing things differently from robertk's Sujin point of view. In terms of study, investigation, and practice, I prefer the suttas to the Abhidhamma (and if I have to consider the Abhidhamma, I very much prefer the Abhidhamma Pitaka to the later works such as the Abhidhammatthasangaha). As for teachers, I would take someone such as Ven Nanananda.

That established, are we discussing what is in the texts? I have seen very little from the Sujin followers from the suttas whereas those here who are more apt to see sitting meditation as an essential part of practice tend to point to the suttas.

Since you really did not answer my question, let me repeat it:
DF wrote:
tilt wrote: Let me ask you, using conventional language, one can act intentionally -- kamma --, and does not such an action give rise to dhammas? Could not these dhammas then, in turn, be the conditions for the arising of sati? Speaking conventionally, one can certainly act in such a way that the conditions for sati arise. That is not say to that one just sits on a cushion and say: "Arise sati!!!" But it is to say that one can cultivate conditions that lead to the arising of sati. Even your method claims as much, but just in a more circumbendibus way.
Dear Tilt,

Cetana arises with all citta, as you must know. Cetana arises in both kusala and akusala cittas. Kusala kamma results in kusala vipaka. As for the arising of panna, it is not cetana that conditions it, but panna cetasika it-self -from hearing and understanding the rights words.
Note: "Let me ask you, using conventional language." You gave an Abhidhamma-speak response. Since not every one here is comfortable with Abhidhamma-speak or thinks in those terms, since the suttas do not require it, how about, as an interesting exercise, that you restate what you said using conventional Dhamma language.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: Dear Tilt,

I believe it refers to the kind of being with quick understanding, those who have had accumulated such a great deal of wisdom that one short sentence in common language is enough for them to get it.
I don't thinks so. These verses from the Dhammapada are quite straightforward and are clearly aimed at not some sort of person with paramis to burn, but rather it is directed to anyone, and its language is clear and direct. One does not need the complexities of the Abhidhamma to understand what it being said, nor does one need the complexities of the Abhidhamma to put it into practice.
  • By oneself is evil done, by oneself is one defiled;
    By oneself is evil shunned, by oneself is one refined.

    To polish or stain, on ourselves it depends,
    For a person cannot by another be cleansed.

    (Dhammapada 165)
Dear Tilt,

The above passage is saying the work to be done is from within. It doesn't mean, however, that there is a self doing the work.
There may be no unchanging, lasting self behind the choice to willfully act -- kamma --in such a way as to leave evil shunned, but that does not mean I cannot meaningfully say:"I am going to cease to do evil; I am going to cultivate good, and I am going to purify my mind." Again, the "I" does not refer to some sort of ATMAN, but it does point to the fact that the Buddha held that direct choices can be made in terms of our practice.
As for the Abhidhamma, why don't just simply call it the teaching on dhammas which is marvelous?
As has been pointed out, one does not need the complexities of the Abhidhamma.
Can anyone comes to realization of sotapattimagga without having realized the nature of dhammas ? And again, what arises and falls away?
Again, one does not need the complexities of the Abhidhamma to accomplish this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk, do you practice sitting meditation? If you don't maybe you would enjoy it.
You see now, while at the computer I am sitting (actually slouching, maybe I should straigten up).

If I thought oh I better stand up so understanding can grow, or lie down, or open a Dhamma book then I am not really serious, I really dont want to undertand this moment as it is, I am imagining that some future situation is better.

It shows a lack of confidence in what the path is, it would mean I don't believe that as it says in the Satipatthana sutta "
bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it."
Notice it doesnt say "when is standing he should think "Oh sitting is better". It actually says "JUST AS HIS BODY IS DISPOSED "

Or sometimes Buddhist think they should try to gte rid of lust and then have 'real' vipassana. However The Satipatthana sutta says."bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust;"""
And all of that becomes so much easier when grounded in a meditation practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:since the suttas do not require it, how about, as an interesting exercise, that you restate what you said using conventional Dhamma language.
This neatly gets to the heart of the matter.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And all of that becomes so much easier when grounded in a meditation practice.
Is that tautologous or are you differentiating a "meditation practice" here that is separate or distinct from satipatthana as described by Robert?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote: The difference is one is the teaching of the Buddha (that listening to the right Dhamma and wise consideration condition the arising of sati-panna) and the other (that intending to have sati by formal practice) is not, it is the contrary to the Buddha's teaching on anattaness and dependent originations.
Listening to the "right Dhamma" is a choice the you make; wise consideration is a choice you make. In other words, you are acting in such a way as to condition your trajectory in relation to the Dhamma. Sitting meditation practice is no different in that it is away of conditioning one's Dhamma trajectory. This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38. Sitting meditation is not all contrary to the Buddha's teachings.
And so, Ananda, I have taught directed meditation; and I have taught undirected meditation. Whatever is to be done by a teacher with compassion for the welfare of students, that has been done by me out of compassion for you. Here are the roots of trees. Here are empty places. Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one who is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you.SN 47.10 PTS: S v 154 CDB ii 1638
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And all of that becomes so much easier when grounded in a meditation practice.
Is that tautologous or are you differentiating a "meditation practice" here that is separate from satipatthana as described by Robert?

Metta,
Retro. :)
The point is that with a grounding in sitting/walking type practice makes the sort of thing robertk is describing easier.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
Tilt:
It is hard not to read this as a flat, straight forward dismissal of sitting practice itself. Maybe you were really tired when you wrote this and you really do not mean to dismiss meditation practice as direct away of cultivating the factors giving rise to wisdom/insight
.

Think of all the suttas that say seeing and color must be directly known, must be seen with wisdom. Yet I have even heard of people closing their eyes thinking this is part of 'doing vipasaana". (I realize this is a very extreme case, possibly no Dhammawheel members would think that, but it does show the confusions that exist about what 'meditation' really is in the Buddhist sense).
Please elaborate. I have no idea of what you are talking about here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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