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How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma - Dhamma Wheel

How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:33 pm

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Cittasanto
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:01 pm

what is the difference between no self - not self - and no self view two are possitions of a self, the third isn't.
the Buddha took no position on a self because he had no self view to take a position on.

just my take on it.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

upekkha
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby upekkha » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:39 pm

clw_uk: why do you need to defend Buddha?
what do you think the Buddha would say to your question?
why do you feel the need to argue with someone who holds views different than yourself? what will be achieved by this?

personally i find discussions where i try to convince someone else of my own views quite futile and mostly a waste of precious time.

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tiltbillings
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:56 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:01 pm

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mikenz66
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:12 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:17 pm

Thanks for that tilt really appreciate it


I think in the end i wont win (although thats not the point of it) since, as i said in another thread, there seems a tendency to just keep putting Atman back behind anything you say is not-self. Cant really see how you can dislodge that view if its always being moved back


I find it odd really since they seem to negate everything as not-self and every attribute of Self, you have to wonder why on earth they even bother to call it self in the first place


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clw_uk
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:21 pm

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tiltbillings
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:28 pm


upekkha
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby upekkha » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:29 pm

more important to 'attain' nibbana than to defend it!! :anjali:

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clw_uk
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:31 pm

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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:32 pm

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tiltbillings
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:46 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:51 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:53 pm


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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:03 pm


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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby Hoja » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:16 pm


Individual
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby Individual » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:43 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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christopher:::
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby christopher::: » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:31 am

Kind of in line with Individual's point, in the days when i used to spend more time at the grey forum i often wondered what fellow Buddhists from a number of traditions were refering to when they talked about being reborn in the Pureland, attaining a rainbow body, etc.

Who obtains a rainbow body, who is reborn?

But i never pressed about it, cause these are longstanding beliefs, which people hold dearly to. The contradiction (in my mind) with the Buddha's teachings of anatta was something i did not press.

With Hindus, many have a belief in atman. Why push it? It's someone's belief. Yeah, they are going to try and see the Buddha's dharma through that pov, but isnt that understandable? Muslims do that with Christianity and Judaism, they read the same books but spin it their way.

Imagine getting in the middle of that debate..!?

In my view everything is emptiness/no-thing-ness at its core, so folks can call things as they like. Even something like a soul, rainbow body, atman- even a pureland -- might exist for a period of time, i think, but not eternally. In the end all things, even sentient beings, dissolve into (fill in the blank)... Void, Unborn, Nothingness, Brahman, Spirit, Space, etc...

That's what i believe anyway, I could be wrong, just it seems impossible to PROVE these things, with logic, reasoning or science. That's why they are often called "spiritual beliefs."

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: How to deny Atman - Help defending Buddhadhamma

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:14 am



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