The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:23 pm

robertk wrote:Saddhdhamma, true Dhamma is a frequentvterm in the tipitika to refer to the Buddhas teaching.
But that does not answer the question and point raised: How do you know it is "true Dhamma" that you are hearing? And I would guess that there is non-"true Dhamma," which is what us meditators are hearing.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:35 pm

robertk wrote:
So do you just work on panna, and leave aside sila and samadhi?
When there is panna, for those brief moments one is free of illwill, lust and any harmful.factors. there is also samadhi at that time
So, in other words, what I am getting out of this is that one really does not need to worry about sila at all; one just has to make sure that one is listening to the "true Dhamma," and the "true Dhamma" really does not include any admonitions to actively cultivate sila or to actively cultivate concentration and mindfulness. By listening to the "true Dhamma" only, everything -- sila, insight, concentration -- happens because the listening to the "true Dhamma" alone is what sets up the conditions for those things to arise. Anything else is not "true Dhamma."
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Kenshou
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Kenshou » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:45 pm

Would it be rude to say, without implicating any specific individuals, that this Sujin approach seems suspiciously and conveniently well crafted to allow a dhamma that allows one to not actually put in any real effort or do any real practice. Beyond I suppose, study and sila at most, as far as I can tell.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:26 am

Kenshou wrote:Would it be rude to say, without implicating any specific individuals, that this Sujin approach seems suspiciously and conveniently well crafted to allow a dhamma that allows one to not actually put in any real effort or do any real practice. Beyond I suppose, study and sila at most, as far as I can tell.
Unquestionably, it is unusual. While it may be a way of practice, the problem I have with what is being presented by the Sujin followers in this thread is what looks to be the unqualified rejection of any other way of practice as being actually efficacious or legitimate or taught by the Buddha.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:15 am


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Ben
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Ben » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:13 am



Related to what, exactly, Kevin?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:15 am

Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:16 am

Mr Man wrote:Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?
Did you listen to it?
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?
Did you listen to it?


Yes I did. I think that it would be nice for Virgo to say how he relates the clip to this discusion though.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:52 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?
Did you listen to it?


Yes I did. I think that it would be nice for Virgo to say how he relates the clip to this discusion though.
I hope he does. One needs to do more than just plop something on the table without being willing to discuss it. While the characterization of traditional metta meditation is in line with some things said in this thread, it would be of interest to read a what Sujin followers have to about what is said in the talk.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:45 pm

Ben wrote:


Related to what, exactly, Kevin?

The right path and the wrong path.

Kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:46 pm

Virgo wrote:
Ben wrote:


Related to what, exactly, Kevin?

The right path and the wrong path.

Kevin
Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:49 pm

Mr Man wrote:Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?

Very often we take akusala for kusala. Is there really calm or is it attachment? This is evident in the discussion about metta practice in the talk.

We have so much lobha that we don't even recognize it most of the time. Is that really renunciation? Or is that just developing more subtle akusala?

These are the questions we have to ask ourselves.

Kevin

Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:54 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?

One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:58 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?

One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin

Virgo
Do you understand it?

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:08 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?

Very often we take akusala for kusala. Is there really calm or is it attachment? This is evident in the discussion about metta practice in the talk.

We have so much lobha that we don't even recognize it most of the time. Is that really renunciation? Or is that just developing more subtle akusala?

These are the questions we have to ask ourselves.

Kevin

Virgo
And do you know kusala and akusala? Do you know lobha? Are you possibly just passing on someone else's view? Do you see the attachment you have?
Where are you Virgo? Can you work with that?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:15 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?

One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin

Virgo
Do you understand it?

I like to think that I understand it fairly well, yes.

Kevin

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:36 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mr Man wrote:

Virgo
Do you understand it?

I like to think that I understand it fairly well, yes.

Kevin

So Virgo, You know what is right path and what is wrong path? You know you are on the right path (you have gone beyond doubt)? And you no when others are on the wrong path?
Last edited by Mr Man on Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:48 pm

I am finding it interesting to learn about the Abhidhammic way of looking at things. So when I searched ATI for "magga-paccaya" I also found this in The Abhidhamma in Practice, by N.K.G. Mendis, in a list of "paccayas" (Modes of Conditioning)
Faculty condition (indriya paccaya). There are twenty-two faculties: six sense bases, two sexes, the life faculty, five feelings, five feelings, five spiritual faculties, and three supra-mundane faculties. Except for the two sexes, the other twenty can exercise control in their respective spheres on the co-existent mental states and the material phenomena they originate. For example, mindfulness — one of the five spiritual faculties — has a controlling influence on the other four co-adjuncts during meditation.

and also this:
Free Will. Someone might say: "If all phenomena are conditionally arisen, then Buddhism is a form of fatalism, for we have no free will to control our destiny." Such a statement would not be correct. Will is volition (cetanaa), a mental state, determined ethically by its root condition (hetu paccaya). If the root is unwholesome, we can either restrain or indulge the volition; if the root is wholesome, we can encourage it or neglect it. In this exercise of will lies our freedom to guide our destiny.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:26 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?

One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin
Of course, this is a non-answer. The talk you linked was interesting for any number of reasons. The traditional metta practice as we see in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga was utterly dismissed. discounted as being wrong path was interesting, but expected in light of what as been said above, and the rather triumphalist responses of the questioners of Sujin in regards to the traditionalist to metta practice approach was very interesting. So, the question is: why did you link this talk? For what purpose?
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723


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