The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?
Did you listen to it?
Yes I did. I think that it would be nice for Virgo to say how he relates the clip to this discusion though.
I hope he does. One needs to do more than just plop something on the table without being willing to discuss it. While the characterization of traditional metta meditation is in line with some things said in this thread, it would be of interest to read a what Sujin followers have to about what is said in the talk.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

Ben wrote:
Virgo wrote:This is a good related talk:

http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/2 ... m-b-01.mp3
Related to what, exactly, Kevin?
The right path and the wrong path.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
Ben wrote:
Virgo wrote:This is a good related talk:

http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/2 ... m-b-01.mp3
Related to what, exactly, Kevin?
The right path and the wrong path.

Kevin
Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

Mr Man wrote:Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?
Very often we take akusala for kusala. Is there really calm or is it attachment? This is evident in the discussion about metta practice in the talk.

We have so much lobha that we don't even recognize it most of the time. Is that really renunciation? Or is that just developing more subtle akusala?

These are the questions we have to ask ourselves.

Kevin
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote: Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?
One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?
One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin
Virgo
Do you understand it?
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Virgo wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi Virgo
Perhaps you could bring what you took from the talk to the discusion?
Very often we take akusala for kusala. Is there really calm or is it attachment? This is evident in the discussion about metta practice in the talk.

We have so much lobha that we don't even recognize it most of the time. Is that really renunciation? Or is that just developing more subtle akusala?

These are the questions we have to ask ourselves.

Kevin
Virgo
And do you know kusala and akusala? Do you know lobha? Are you possibly just passing on someone else's view? Do you see the attachment you have?
Where are you Virgo? Can you work with that?
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

Mr Man wrote:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?
One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin
Virgo
Do you understand it?
I like to think that I understand it fairly well, yes.

Kevin
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Virgo wrote:
Mr Man wrote:

Virgo
Do you understand it?
I like to think that I understand it fairly well, yes.

Kevin
So Virgo, You know what is right path and what is wrong path? You know you are on the right path (you have gone beyond doubt)? And you no when others are on the wrong path?
Last edited by Mr Man on Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

I am finding it interesting to learn about the Abhidhammic way of looking at things. So when I searched ATI for "magga-paccaya" I also found this in The Abhidhamma in Practice, by N.K.G. Mendis, in a list of "paccayas" (Modes of Conditioning)
Faculty condition (indriya paccaya). There are twenty-two faculties: six sense bases, two sexes, the life faculty, five feelings, five feelings, five spiritual faculties, and three supra-mundane faculties. Except for the two sexes, the other twenty can exercise control in their respective spheres on the co-existent mental states and the material phenomena they originate. For example, mindfulness — one of the five spiritual faculties — has a controlling influence on the other four co-adjuncts during meditation.
and also this:
Free Will. Someone might say: "If all phenomena are conditionally arisen, then Buddhism is a form of fatalism, for we have no free will to control our destiny." Such a statement would not be correct. Will is volition (cetanaa), a mental state, determined ethically by its root condition (hetu paccaya). If the root is unwholesome, we can either restrain or indulge the volition; if the root is wholesome, we can encourage it or neglect it. In this exercise of will lies our freedom to guide our destiny.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?
One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin
Of course, this is a non-answer. The talk you linked was interesting for any number of reasons. The traditional metta practice as we see in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga was utterly dismissed. discounted as being wrong path was interesting, but expected in light of what as been said above, and the rather triumphalist responses of the questioners of Sujin in regards to the traditionalist to metta practice approach was very interesting. So, the question is: why did you link this talk? For what purpose?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Don't be stingy with your words. What is the right path and what is the wrong path?
One needs to understand magga-paccaya to really understand it.

Kevin
Of course, this is a non-answer.
Of course it's not a non-answer. Magga-paccaya is one of the 24 Conditions, right out of the texts. Whether it conditions the right path or the wrong path can be seen by what cetasikas are present. I answered briefly, because magga-paccaya itself explains everything. If you don't understand what it is, you can read more about it here: http://www.zolag.co.uk/conditions/html_ ... ition.html.

I didn't want to explain everything, so I summed it up with magga-paccaya.
tiltbillings wrote: The talk you linked was interesting for any number of reasons. The traditional metta practice as we see in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga was utterly dismissed. discounted as being wrong path was interesting, but expected in light of what as been said above, and the rather triumphalist responses of the questioners of Sujin in regards to the traditionalist to metta practice approach was very interesting. So, the question is: why did you link this talk? For what purpose?
True metta is never unwholesome. Sila is never unwholesome, etc. There have been many great meditators that cultivated metta. However, just because we think we are cultivating mettta does not mean we actually are. It takes a person with very high accumulations for it to practice samatha of any kind. They have to have panna on that level. I personally do not believe that every person has that kind of understanding. A lot of times, we just increase our self-view that way, taking attachment (unwholesome) as calm (wholesome). During those moments, the cetasikas which are path factors are not present, so we are not on the right path.

It can be hard to know when the mind is kusala or akusala. For example, earlier today while driving I saw a Golden Retriever in someones yard. It was running around and came very close to the edge of the road (almost on the road) as I approached in my vehicle. I had aversion thinking that the dog was pesky and might run into traffic while I drove by, and that I might hit it by accident. Then the dog (while still on the lawn) jumped in the air and wagged it's tail which was quite beautiful. I felt happier immediately and was no longer disturbed by the presence of the dog. After I drove by I thought to myself "first I was averse to the dog which was akusala but then there was a moment with metta and I liked the dog when I saw how playful it was and how nice it looked". When I examined my mind closer, I realized there was actually not any metta at the moment that I thought there was, there was just attachment because seeing a carefree dog made me feel good. I liked the color of it's fur. I liked it's bushy tale. I liked that it was carefree. It made me feel good, and I was attached at that moment. That's akusala, not metta. That moment was not an eight-fold path moment.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
Of course it's not a non-answer. Magga-paccaya is one of the 24 Conditions, right out of the texts. . . . I didn't want to explain everything, so I summed it up with magga-paccaya.
Using technical Abhidhamma terminology that is certainly not going to understood by a fair numbers of readers here is in a non-answer.
tiltbillings wrote: The talk you linked was interesting for any number of reasons. The traditional metta practice as we see in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga was utterly dismissed. discounted as being wrong path was interesting, but expected in light of what as been said above, and the rather triumphalist responses of the questioners of Sujin in regards to the traditionalist to metta practice approach was very interesting. So, the question is: why did you link this talk? For what purpose?
True metta . . .Kevin
Again, you did not answer the questions put to you: The talk you linked was interesting for any number of reasons. The traditional metta practice as we see in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga was utterly dismissed. discounted as being wrong path was interesting, but expected in light of what as been said above, and the rather triumphalist responses of the questioners of Sujin in regards to the traditionalist to metta practice approach was very interesting. So, the question is: why did you link this talk? For what purpose? It certainly does not look like you are denying that the traditional Theravadin understanding of metta practice is being rejected as being simply wrong. And you certainly did not at all address the the attitude of triumphalism exptressed by the Sujin questioners in the talk.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sylvester
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Sylvester »

Hmm, if stream entry is an absolute pre-requisite to practise by this theory, how will that sit with the model in MN 70 that even the Dhamma-followers and Faith-followers have a duty with heedfulness (appamādena karaṇīyanti)?
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Virgo wrote:
Of course it's not a non-answer.
Hi Virgo,
And how about the answers to the questions I offered to you?
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