Nones

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Nones

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:00 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nones

Postby cooran » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:46 am

Very interesting Tilt! I wish someone would do as detailed a study on the views of Australians.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Nones

Postby zavk » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:22 am

I've come across some commentaries/review of these findings.

‘Nones’ ≠ Nonreligious
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... gers/6648/

Does Record Number of Religious “Nones” Mean Decline of Religiosity?
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... ligiosity/

The Great Religious Realignment
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... alignment/

Some of the questions raised seem interesting, though I can't say I really grasp the implications since I do not have firsthand experience of the American context, which, as far as I can tell, is quite different from any lived experience I've had.

Hope the above links are of interest.
With metta,
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Re: Nones

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:58 pm

However, a new survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, conducted jointly with the PBS television program Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, finds that many of the country’s 46 million unaffiliated adults are religious or spiritual in some way. Two-thirds of them say they believe in God (68%). More than half say they often feel a deep connection with nature and the earth (58%), while more than a third classify themselves as “spiritual” but not “religious” (37%), and one-in-five (21%) say they pray every day. In addition, most religiously unaffiliated Americans think that churches and other religious institutions benefit society by strengthening community bonds and aiding the poor.

Gah, this stuff worries me.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Nones

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:42 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
However, a new survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, conducted jointly with the PBS television program Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, finds that many of the country’s 46 million unaffiliated adults are religious or spiritual in some way. Two-thirds of them say they believe in God (68%). More than half say they often feel a deep connection with nature and the earth (58%), while more than a third classify themselves as “spiritual” but not “religious” (37%), and one-in-five (21%) say they pray every day. In addition, most religiously unaffiliated Americans think that churches and other religious institutions benefit society by strengthening community bonds and aiding the poor.

Gah, this stuff worries me.


Why? How so?
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Nones

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:13 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:Why? How so?

I hate to do this, but rather than restate myself, here's a little essay I wrote regarding what I dislike so much about the concept of "spiritual, not religious": http://thisbodyisacorpse.wordpress.com/ ... religious/
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Nones

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:26 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Why? How so?

I hate to do this, but rather than restate myself, here's a little essay I wrote regarding what I dislike so much about the concept of "spiritual, not religious": http://thisbodyisacorpse.wordpress.com/ ... religious/


Oh, now I get it. I read that post of yours a while ago actually and I agree with your sentiments. But I actually even dislike the term spiritual in general as well because it immediately brings to mind doctrines of self, soul, spirit as well as wishy washy contemporary relativist approaches to religious teachings. I don't want to live a spiritual life, but a dhammic one, a life attuned to reality, natural law, the Basic Pattern, the way things really are, full of wisdom as opposed to strange esoteric ideas of True Self like those found in yoga. Anyway, that's my own rant on the word but thanks for clarifying.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Nones

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:30 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:Oh, now I get it. I read that post of yours a while ago actually and I agree with your sentiments. But I actually even dislike the term spiritual in general as well because it immediately brings to mind doctrines of self, soul, spirit as well as wishy washy contemporary relativist approaches to religious teachings. I don't want to live a spiritual life, but a dhammic one, a life attuned to reality, natural law, the Basic Pattern, the way things really are, full of wisdom as opposed to strange esoteric ideas of True Self like those found in yoga. Anyway, that's my own rant on the word but thanks for clarifying.

:namaste:

I totally agree; the Dhamma is about getting rid of the self, and the vague "spiritual" practices indulged in by the new generation on "nones" are by and large going in the exact opposite direction of self-affirmation and expansion.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Nones

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:06 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:the Dhamma is about getting rid of the self


Well, this might amount to annihilationism, so take care...

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Nones

Postby alan » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:03 am

Better to have "nones" than religious fanatics. Overall, I'd say this is a positive change.
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Re: Nones

Postby Benjamin » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:57 pm

On a somewhat related note, there's an essay by Sam Harris (the famous Atheist) on "Killing the Buddha", i.e ridding Buddhism of its 'religious' aspects. The only reason I'm even bothering to mention it is due to the fact that he's been meditating for a long time, and I've always found him to be the least hot headed of the Atheist "celebrities".

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text ... he-buddha/


:focus:


In regards to the supposed rising atheism of the country, I can say that as a college student I don't doubt its accuracy at least among my generation. The students here (Kent State) that go to church weekly seem to do it out of habit, and keep their business to themselves. In other words, I see much less evangelizing. However, the vast majority I've met seem wholly uninterested in anything "religious".
"Don't believe everything you read."
-The Buddha
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Re: Nones

Postby polarbuddha101 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:14 pm

Benjamin wrote:On a somewhat related note, there's an essay by Sam Harris (the famous Atheist) on "Killing the Buddha", i.e ridding Buddhism of its 'religious' aspects. The only reason I'm even bothering to mention it is due to the fact that he's been meditating for a long time, and I've always found him to be the least hot headed of the Atheist "celebrities".

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text ... he-buddha/


I actually started a topic here on that article a while ago when I was more atheistic and less buddhist. Just thought I'd post it in case you wanted to read it.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12160

Also, I found that when I was raised as a christian I noticed more christians and when I became an atheist I stopped noticing religious people for the most part and found myself living in an atheistic world.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Nones

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:45 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Why? How so?

I hate to do this, but rather than restate myself, here's a little essay I wrote regarding what I dislike so much about the concept of "spiritual, not religious": http://thisbodyisacorpse.wordpress.com/ ... religious/


With those kinds of things you really have to know how the question is phrased and who is asking. For instance are you:

1. Catholic
2. Protestant
3. Spiritual but not religious.

:)

This chart for instance speaks volumes about the assumptions of those doing the survey and their aims:
Image
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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