The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:39 am

It's the last paragraph that is the most interesting for me - Nina van Gorkom saying that anapanasati is only for the gifted, the great disciples


AS Nina says it is in the Commentary to the suttas but also in the Visuddhimagga
Viii

211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons..."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:57 am

Robertk:

So, even though Buddhaghosa advocates deliberate sitting meditation practice, you are taking this passage as being a support for the Sujin-style rejection of sitting meditation as we see in the very provocative Sujin talk Kevin linked?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:59 am

Hi robertk
In the interview Nina van Gorkom says "It is most difficult to be aware of breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air produced by other factors, not breath". It there a slightly different definition of "breath here? What does "air produced by other factors" mean?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:38 am

While the mindfulness of breathing is potentially the most subtle of practices, as Buddhaghosa states, Buddhaghosa spends a great deal of time discussing its development, from the very basic counting of breaths beginner's practice onwards through the jhanas to awakening. Taking Chapter VIII section 211 out of context, as was done in the interview, actually neatly makes the point of how terribly wrong Nina van Gorkom is in the above interview.


    Visuddhimagga CHAPTER VIII

    145. Now comes the description of the development of mindfulness of breathing
    as a meditation subject. It has been recommended by the Blessed One thus:
    “And, bhikkhus, this concentration through mindfulness of breathing, when
    developed and practiced much, is both peaceful and sublime, it is an
    unadulterated blissful abiding, and it banishes at once and stills evil unprofitable
    thoughts as soon as they arise” (S V 321; Vin III 70).

    It has been described by the Blessed One as having sixteen bases thus: “And
    how developed, bhikkhus, how practiced much, is concentration through
    mindfulness of breathing both peaceful and sublime, an unadulterated blissful
    abiding, banishing at once and stilling evil unprofitable thoughts as soon as
    they arise?
    “Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an
    empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect,
    established mindfulness in front of him, [267] ever mindful he breathes in,
    mindful he breathes out.

    146: Developed, bhikkhus, … is concentration through
    mindfulness of breathing

    153. . . . So too, when a bhikkhu wants to tame his own mind which
    has long been spoilt by being reared on visible data, etc., as object for its food
    and drink, he should take it away from visible data, etc., as object and bring it
    into the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place and tie it up there to the
    post of in-breaths and out-breaths with the rope of mindfulness.

    162. Ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out: having seated himself
    thus, having established mindfulness thus, the bhikkhu does not abandon that
    mindfulness; ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out; he is a mindful
    worker, is what is meant.

    190. 1. Herein, this clansman who is a beginner should first give attention to
    this meditation subject by counting. And when counting, he should not stop
    short of five or go beyond ten or make any break in the series. By stopping short
    of five his thoughts get excited in the cramped space, like a herd of cattle shut in
    a cramped pen. By going beyond ten his thoughts take the number [rather than
    the breaths] for their support. By making a break in the series he wonders if the
    meditation subject has reached completion or not. So he should do his counting
    without those faults.

    211. Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in
    one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this
    one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness
    of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of
    Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and Buddhas’ sons are at home. It is no trivial matter,
    nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons. In proportion as continued attention is
    given to it, it becomes more peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness
    and understanding are necessary here.

    212. Just as when doing needlework on a piece of fine cloth a fine needle is
    needed, and a still finer instrument for boring the needle’s eye, so too, when
    developing this meditation subject, which resembles fine cloth, both the
    mindfulness, which is the counterpart of the needle, and the understanding
    associated with it, which is the counterpart of the instrument for boring the
    needle’s eye, need to be strong. A bhikkhu must have the necessary mindfulness
    and understanding and must look for the in-breaths and out-breaths nowhere
    else than the place normally touched by them.

    238. Its great beneficialness should be understood here as peacefulness both
    because of the words, “And, bhikkhus, this concentration through mindfulness
    of breathing, when developed and much practiced, is both peaceful and sublime”
    (S V 321), etc., and because of its ability to cut off applied thoughts; for it is
    because it is peaceful, sublime, and an unadulterated blissful abiding that it cuts
    off the mind’s running hither and thither with applied thoughts obstructive to
    concentration, and keeps the mind only on the breaths as object. Hence it is said:
    “Mindfulness of breathing should be developed in order to cut off applied
    thoughts” (A IV 353).

    239. Also its great beneficialness should be understood as the root condition
    for the perfecting of clear vision and deliverance; for this has been said by the
    Blessed One: “Bhikkhus, mindfulness of breathing, when developed and much
    practiced, perfects the four foundations of mindfulness. The four foundations of
    mindfulness, when developed and much practiced, perfect the seven
    enlightenment factors. The seven enlightenment factors, when developed and
    much practiced, perfect clear vision and deliverance” (M III 82).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:51 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
Nevertheless, the Buddha taught concentration practices such as anapanasati--breathing mindfulness. Doesn’t that suggest that they are important?
We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha’s time there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This is a very subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be aware of breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred sayings V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can practice it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone should practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to do so, he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, and that breath is only rupa. -- Interview with Nina van Gorkom


I will go so far as to call this wrong view. Do not be so heedless, meditate, lest you regret it later.
A question arises with consideration of the Nina Van Gorkom interview quoted above and the Sujin talk linked above by Virgo. Does the Sujin methodology inherently entail the triumphalist dismissal of other models of practice, mainly the meditative models. I am assuming that one could put into practice the Sujin method of Abhidhamma practice without such wholesale dismissals of meditation practice, but when we listen to the talk with Sujin herself and her students, it certainly seems that the triumphalist dismissal of mediation is part of the package. It would be of interest if the Sujin method practitioners here addressed this issue.

Outside of the dismissal of meditation, the Sujin method may have value, but if it does, it is clearly not well served by the comments and the seriously out of context reference to the commentary we see in the interview or by the general attitude of triumphalism expressed in the linked talk.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dan74 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:24 am

I'm guessing there is no school, tradition or lineage that is immune from "triumphalism."

It reinforces the faith of the adherents and at the same time closes the door on exploring what others have to offer.
_/|\_

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:29 am

Dan74 wrote:I'm guessing there is no school, tradition or lineage that is immune from "triumphalism."

It reinforces the faith of the adherents and at the same time closes the door on exploring what others have to offer.
And it is a turn-off to those looking at the triumphalist group. Sadly, one of the things that is apparent in both the interview and in the Sujin talk is that those who were criticizing sitting meditation practice really showed no actual understanding of it as a process of Dhamma exploration and development. This sort of thing is rather unfortunate and rather puzzling.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:36 pm

tiltbillings wrote:A question arises with consideration of the Nina Van Gorkom interview quoted above and the Sujin talk linked above by Virgo. Does the Sujin methodology inherently entail the triumphalist dismissal of other models of practice, mainly the meditative models. I am assuming that one could put into practice the Sujin method of Abhidhamma practice without such wholesale dismissals of meditation practice, but when we listen to the talk with Sujin herself and her students, it certainly seems that the triumphalist dismissal of mediation is part of the package. It would be of interest if the Sujin method practitioners here addressed this issue.



Dear Tilt,

I will offer here my opinion about this.

Ajhan Sujin doesn't teach any method of her own. She shares her understanding of the Dhamma that is left by the Buddha in the Tipitaka. Her reading into the texts has shown that, there are two kinds of development mentioned in the Tipitaka: samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. The second one is only available during a Buddha' sasana. Until here, I think no disagreement.

Nowadays, many people consider the act of doing meditation to be bhavana, but AS doesn't share that view. In her understanding, each kind of bhavana has its own conditions. Vipassana bhavana or the development of wisdom to see things as they are has the conditions as it has been shown in this thread (hearing the right Dhamma and wise considering). These conditions, mentioned both in the suttas and commentaries, have nothing to do with the act of sitting or doing anything in particular. It is the panna cetasika which arises as a result of understanding what has been heard about realities now, that is accumulated again and again until it can condition the arising of panna at the level of direct understanding. One may wonder how intellectual understanding can condition direct understanding. We read in the Atthasalini

... Mindfulness has "not floating away" as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (sanna) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-past from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses.
The definition of mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 141) is similar to this definition.


On the proximate cause for the arising of sati: thira sanna, which means, strong remembrance of right view about realities. Note also that AS explains sati of satipatthana as being accompanied by understanding. So when talking about sati of satipatthana, we talk about direct understanding of realities, not of concepts.

As for the first kind of bhavana, samatha bhavana, AS doesn't reject the sitting posture, neither the regular practice of this form. However, she does also stress a lot on the understanding of necessary conditions for its development, as well as the understanding of the meditation object (kamathana). Since the underlying meaning of samatha is kusala and calm, the one who is to undertake that bhavana must have very deep understanding of what is kusala, and what is not, and of how the meditation object can condition calmness to arise. It is certainly not just a matter of focusing on the object, because that can be done with ignorance and clinging too. So understanding is also a very strong factor of samatha bhavana. This is clearly in accord with what is said in the Visudhimagga that you quoted.

Nonetheless, AS doesn't encourage so much samatha bhavana for the following reasons:

- It is much a rarer chance to come accross the Buddha's Teaching on realities. Samatha will be available anytime.
- Because wisdom that is involved in vipassana bhavana is of higher degree, at the moment of understanding, samatha is also there.
- To be able to develop samatha to such degree as jhanna is not ordinary task for today's people's accumulations.

Well, I hope I have presented AS's view on the matter more or less correctly, any correction is welcome!

Brgds,
D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:52 pm

Dhamma-follower,

Thank you for your response, but again, you did not directly, or even indirectly, address the question of the triumphalism that seemed quite evident in the linked talk. But you did give an exposition of the Sujin method, which is of interest.

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A question arises with consideration of the Nina Van Gorkom interview quoted above and the Sujin talk linked above by Virgo. Does the Sujin methodology inherently entail the triumphalist dismissal of other models of practice, mainly the meditative models. I am assuming that one could put into practice the Sujin method of Abhidhamma practice without such wholesale dismissals of meditation practice, but when we listen to the talk with Sujin herself and her students, it certainly seems that the triumphalist dismissal of mediation is part of the package. It would be of interest if the Sujin method practitioners here addressed this issue.



Dear Tilt,

I will offer here my opinion about this.

Ajhan Sujin doesn't teach any method of her own. She shares her understanding of the Dhamma that is left by the Buddha in the Tipitaka.
If this were true that she "doesn't teach any method of her own," and what she is teaching is exactly and only what the Buddha taught, then what it is that she is teaching is the only True Dhamma and everyone else is not teaching the True Dhamma. It is not a credible position. Hers is an interpretation of what she thinks the Dhamma is. It may work for her students, but that does not mean that other interpretations by other teachers cannot and do not work quite well for others. "[H]er understanding," which is to say, her interpretation, her method, which is one of many in the Theravada world.

Her reading into the texts has shown that, there are two kinds of development mentioned in the Tipitaka: samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. The second one is only available during a Buddha' sasana. Until here, I think no disagreement.
The thing is, DF, highly educated and highly experienced opinions are going to vary, and obviously do.

Nowadays, many people consider the act of doing meditation to be bhavana, but AS doesn't share that view. In her understanding, each kind of bhavana has its own conditions. Vipassana bhavana or the development of wisdom to see things as they are has the conditions as it has been shown in this thread (hearing the right Dhamma and wise considering). These conditions, mentioned both in the suttas and commentaries, have nothing to do with the act of sitting or doing anything in particular.
Interestingly enough one has to choose to listen to the "right Dhamma." What I see with the Sujin followers is a great deal more than just listening. You actually have to make the decision and the concerted effort, by choice, to learn a remarkable amount of stuff that you in turn try to apply to the stuff arising and falling in your life. It strikes me as a very active, albeit, intellectual practice of choice, of actively doing, of actively trying to cultivate "panna cetasika."

It is the panna cetasika which arises as a result of understanding what has been heard about realities now, that is accumulated again and again until it can condition the arising of panna at the level of direct understanding.
This the story you are telling yourself about the method you use, but the reality is that it is far more than just "hearing." You have to learn the Abhidhamma categories that are necessary for seeing the true nature of the "realities." If you do not know -- have not learned by your active choice -- the categories, you cannot recognize the "realities" the categories represent as they present themselves to you.

One may wonder how intellectual understanding can condition direct understanding. We read in the Atthasalini

... Mindfulness has "not floating away" as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (sanna) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-past from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses.
The definition of mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 141) is similar to this definition.
"[I]ntellectual understanding." Your words, and there is no reason to limit this description of mindfulness to just that.

On the proximate cause for the arising of sati: thira sanna, which means, strong remembrance of right view about realities.
That is more than just mere "hearing"; rather, what you are describing is a choice to have actively learned what you are "remembering" and to have actively applied what you learned to what you are observing,

Note also that AS explains sati of satipatthana as being accompanied by understanding. So when talking about sati of satipatthana, we talk about direct understanding of realities, not of concepts.
You talk about it in those terms, and maybe it is so, but from what I have seen in this thread, heard in the linked talk and read on line, I am not convinced.

As for the first kind of bhavana, samatha bhavana, AS doesn't reject the sitting posture, neither the regular practice of this form.
Sitting posture, or walking slowly, which you just got done in a msg above calling such practice lobha. And that seems to come directly from Sujin.

However, she does also stress a lot on the understanding of necessary conditions for its development, as well as the understanding of the meditation object (kamathana).
In having listened to Sujin, I see nothing in what she said, or in what Nina Van G said, or in what has been said here by the Sujins followers, that shows an actual understanding what goes on with sitting practice.

Since the underlying meaning of samatha is kusala and calm, the one who is to undertake that bhavana must have very deep understanding of what is kusala, and what is not, and of how the meditation object can condition calmness to arise.
What does that actually mean and how does one do that? You cannot do it doing sitting/walking meditation?

It is certainly not just a matter of focusing on the object, because that can be done with ignorance and clinging too. So understanding is also a very strong factor of samatha bhavana. This is clearly in accord with what is said in the Visudhimagga that you quoted.
In sitting practice, what do you think is actually going on?

Nonetheless, AS doesn't encourage so much samatha bhavana for the following reasons:

- It is much a rarer chance to come accross the Buddha's Teaching on realities.
One does not need, as the commentaries clearly state, the Abhidhamma in order to successfully practice the Dhamma.

- To be able to develop samatha to such degree as jhanna is not ordinary task for today's people's accumulations.
And so those folks who think they have experienced jhana, they are mistaken? What is it, then, that they have experienced?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:52 pm

Some people asked Nina van gorkom to expand on her comments:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/35027

N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual understanding grows. This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition for practice, patipatti.

============================

Okay, it's clear what the pariyatti is. But what, Nina, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the practice - that the pariyatti "forms up the condition for"?
N: Inspired by Azita's and Christine's good posts, I shall give an example. Yesterday while hiking, we saw the corpse of a yound wild boar. I had attachment to its beauty (the stripes on its back were so cute), and aversion because of the flies on it. I then remembered suttas. especially Theragatha,: "As is that body, so this body will be." This brings us back to reality now. What are we? Only citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away. There is actually life and death at each moment, also now. If there are enough conditions accumulated such happenings can be a reminder for sati and pañña to consider dhamma now and be aware of it, so that there can be direct understanding.

But I must add that its development is a long process and that we cannot expect a quick result of the development. But anyway it is beneficial to reflect on and contemplate nama and rupa as they appear now, and also to develop the "Perfections". It all begins with listening, and so I was glad with Rob K's quote. A good reminder that sati is also anatta, non-self. it cannot be manipulated.

When we listen, and this also includes reading suttas, we come to understand that citta, cetasika and rupa occur now, in daily life. We come to understand more what kusala is, what akusala. How we need the Abhidhamma and also the consideration of these realities when they occur. When looking at a corpse there are so many types of cittas, akusala and some kusala, but kusala is very rare. A concurrence of many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta with understanding.

As I see it: all the moments of listening, considering, practising dana, sila and mental development, and these include the ten bases of kusala, in our life are the training. They are conditions that are accumulated so that direct understanding of dhammas can arise and lead to enlightenment. Howard, you have been discussing samatha with Jon. I would like to add something. The subjects of samatha such as mindfulness of death maranasati,, have the word sati. This, as I see it, has everything to do with satipatthana, the development of right understanding of nama and rupa.

As I showed above: maranasati brings us back to awareness of reality now. Also before the Buddha's time people practised samatha, but the Buddha gave a new dimension to all those meditation subjects. Whatever he taught, the goal was always: eradication of wrong view of self and other defilements through the development of understanding now. Thus, whenever we read about samatha or meditation subjects we should not forget this goal. Also for those who could attain jhana the goal was the same. They should not take their development of samatha and jhanacitta for self. I

shall write more to Joop R about the social aspects of the Dhamma. This is nothing else but practice with satipatthana inspired by the whole Tipitaka, including Abhidhamma! But when I say, satipatthana, I know that direct awareness and understanding are difficult, still being far from it. But, even intellectual understanding helps in our life, to understand ourselves and others, to see the benefit of kusala, the danger of akusala. Those are conditions for the growth of pañña, and, as I said, we should not wish for it to grow fast, that slows down the process. Lodewijk understands your concern that just listening may lead to passivity, sliding down to laziness, not doing anything. But, he says, it is listening with the purpose of considering, understanding and applying what one heard in the circumstances of daily life. The above example shows that there are all the time confrontations desirable or undesirable, events and our reactions to it with kusala citta or akusala citta. During a walk, when we visit my father, there are always things happening. We can learn to live by the Dhamma, we do not have to go far, Dhamma is everywhere.
Nina.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:54 pm

Dear Dan
I see from your avatar that you ahve an interest in Zen.
you might like this from the Chan people

In a letter, Ta Hui wrote:

If you consider quietude right and commotion wrong, then this is seeking the real aspect by destroying the worldly aspect, seeking nirvana, the peace of extinction, apart from birth and death. When you like the quiet and hate the hubbub, this is just the time to apply effort. Suddenly when in the midst of hubbub, you topple the scene of quietude -- that power surpasses the (meditation) seat and cushion by a million billion times.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:10 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
I get the sense from these suttas that some forms of clinging are tolerable in the path and practice, or at the very least, are not obstructive to Non-Return. The residue just needs to be dealt with on the final leg to awakening.
That makes sense, indeed.

There are four types of clinging
(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and
rituals, and lastly self view clinging
.

Note that the last three are types of miccha-ditthi, wrong
view(the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle).
These three are
the most dangerous types of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand, see Visuddhimagga
xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates the three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires.

This is hard to comprehend as "sense desire clinging is obvious ... not so the other kinds [the three types of micchaditthi]" Visuddhimagga XVII 246.

So when I was beginning Buddhist studies (still a raw beginner now, but going back a year or two when I was a new fish) I tried to reduce sense desire and did seem to succeed, although looking back it was rather stressful attempting not to watch TV, or enjoy icecream etc. But still, by exerting control there was a reduction in the obvious sense desires.
The problem with this though is that it wasn't even getting at wrongview- it even increased the idea of being able to control!

That is why the path of one of attentuating - by knowing and seeing- silabataparamasa and self view. Then there is the chance for satisampajanna to arise , if conditions coincide.
So if selfview is not seen as wrong, as it arises, if silabataparamasa is not understood as wrong path, then there is no way for the correct path to be known.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:15 pm

Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk
In the interview Nina van Gorkom says "It is most difficult to be aware of breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air produced by other factors, not breath". It there a slightly different definition of "breath here? What does "air produced by other factors" mean?

This high level Abhidhamma is a bit above my payscale.
If i understand correctly breath is actually rupas conditioned by citta.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:21 pm

robertk wrote:. . .
What is really interesting here, for all the dismissal of meditation practice as having no more significance to Dhamma practice than what sandwich shop one goes to, we see a methodology, while talked about with impersonal terminology, of highly active choosing as to how to act. The "listening" involves, by choice, a considerable amount of intellectual active study and active learning of Abhidhamma categories and concepts which are then, by choice, pressed service as a way of cultivating the conditions for the arising of wisdom.

There is no basis here criticizing meditation practice as has been done in this thread or in the linked interview and linked talk by the teacher of this method.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:28 pm

Majjima Nikaya 64, we read: "
An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]."


Unknowingly, many/most efforts we make in the spiritual realm are tied in with this fetter.

It is good to know this, because this knowing will condition dhamma-vicaya(investigation of Dhamma/dhammas) with sammaviriya (right energy) to learn what the right way is.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:37 pm

robertk wrote:Majjima Nikaya 64, we read: "
An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]."


Unknowingly, many/most efforts we make in the spiritual realm are tied in with this fetter.

It is good to know this, because this knowing will condition dhamma-vicaya(investigation of Dhamma/dhammas) with sammaviriya (right energy) to learn what the right way is.
So you say, but quite honestly, I do not see anything in what you have offered here that shows that your mode of practice is any less susceptible to the exact same problem (or any number of other problems). The reality is that we all start from where we are, with what we have, and there are things that get worked through, which includes "a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances."

The wholesale dismissal of meditation by Sujin and her followers, whether it be vipassana, jhana, or -- as in the linked talk -- metta meditation comes across as both ignorant and unwholesome.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:49 pm

I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:52 pm

robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And your point is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:54 pm

robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And this is something that could easily be said by a vipassana meditation teacher.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And your point is?

Sorry, a little earlier in this thread you and sylvester had a conversation:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:

I get the sense from these suttas that some forms of clinging are tolerable in the path and practice, or at the very least, are not obstructive to Non-Return. The residue just needs to be dealt with on the final leg to awakening.
That makes sense, indeed.


Sujin is saying that even right now if lobha is not understood, especially in regard to the path, then that could hinder progress.


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