Becoming

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Polar Bear
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Re: Becoming

Post by Polar Bear »

anjali wrote:Hi Sunyata,

I tend to think of becoming from the point of view of the fire sermon. A flame is in a constant state of becoming as long as there is fuel to support the fire. When the fuel is exhausted, the flame is no longer in a state of becoming and is released. The metaphor works for people who are in a state of continuous clinging (becoming) until craving is exhausted.

Kind regards...
Wow. That actually makes a ridiculous amount of sense. Thanks!

:thumbsup:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
pegembara
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Re: Becoming

Post by pegembara »

Bhava refers to existence.

Bhavanirodho nibbanam, bhavanirodho nibbànan’ti kho me, avuso, anna’va sanna uppajjati anna’va sanna nirujjhati.
Seyyathapi, avuso, sakalikaggissa jhàyamànassa annà’va acci uppajjati, annà’va acci nirujjhati, evam eva kho me àvuso bhavanirodho nibbànam, bhavanirodho nibbànam ‘ti annà’va sannà uppajjati annà’va sannà nirujjhati, bhavanirodho nibbànam sannã ca panàham, àvuso, tasmim samaye ahosim.

“One perception arises in me, friend: `cessation of existence is Nibbàna’, `cessation of existence is Nibbàna’, and an other perception fades out in me: `cessation of existence is Nibbana cessation of existence is Nibbàna’.

Bhavatanha - clinging to existence
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: Becoming

Post by pegembara »

`Ye ca rupupagà sattà
Ye ca arupatthàyino
Nirodham appajànantà
âgantàro punabbhavam'

`Those beings who approach realms of form and those that are in formless realms, not understanding well the fact of cessation, come again and again to existence.' (trans. Bhikkhu Nanananda SEEING THROUGH
- A Guide to Insight Meditation -)

Dvayatànupassanà Sutta
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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SDC
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Re: Becoming

Post by SDC »

I think ‘becoming’ is a misleading rendering of bhāva.

Why?

‘Becoming’ is too accurate of a description of reality.

Why is an accurate description of reality bad?

Because that isn’t what bhāva is explaining.

In the “non-three lives interpretation” of the paṭicca-samuppāda, bhāva is the idea that “I am” or “I exist” – part of a systematic misinterpretation of experience which leads to this whole mass of suffering. So in order to properly reflect this, it makes more sense to use a word such as ‘being’ or ‘existing', as opposed to 'becoming', since these words clearly convey acceptance of the idea of a self which is paramount for what comes next in the PS.

:smile:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
daverupa
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Re: Becoming

Post by daverupa »

Is there any reason why we might want to differentiate bhava "being" from satta "being"?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Spiny Norman
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Re: Becoming

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote:In the “non-three lives interpretation” of the paṭicca-samuppāda, bhāva is the idea that “I am” or “I exist”
Isn't the idea "I am" actually self-view, one of the fetters ( sakkāya-diṭṭhi )? I'm not clear how you're equating this to "bhava".

Also your interpretation of bhava seems to be contradicted by the way the nidanas are defined in MN9 and SN12.2 ( see my earlier post with sections from SN12.2 ).
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Becoming

Post by Spiny Norman »

Does the meaning of bhava depend on context?
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SDC
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Re: Becoming

Post by SDC »

daverupa wrote:Is there any reason why we might want to differentiate bhava "being" from satta "being"?
Good call, Dave.

Bhāva - 'being' as a verb - the belief of the thought "I am".

Satta - 'being' as a noun - a living entity.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: Becoming

Post by SDC »

porpoise wrote:Isn't the idea "I am" actually self-view, one of the fetters ( sakkāya-diṭṭhi )? I'm not clear how you're equating this to "bhava".
Exactly. It is an affirmation of this self view. As I said, bhāva in the PS is pointing out a mistake in understanding.

EDIT - Well not exactly. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi a personality perspective, but even when eliminated there can still be a belief in a self. So not exactly, but yes it is along the same lines in regard to a misinterpretation of experience. I understand sakkāya-diṭṭhi as the character that is played and even though we stop behaving like that character, we still hold a more subtle and fundamental idea that there is a self.
porpoise wrote:Also your interpretation of bhava seems to be contradicted by the way the nidanas are defined in MN9 and SN12.2 ( see my earlier post with sections from SN12.2 ).
Not at all, although I can see that it appears so especially when trying to understand it using the three lives interpretation.
porpoise wrote:"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming."

"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death."
When experience is seen as ‘being’, there is the thought “I am” or “I exist”. This is the affirmation in the belief in a self. When a self exists, this prompts the identification of where the self came from and where the self is going. In other words, “Where did I come from and where am I going?” First birth is seen as where “I” came from and then aging and death is seen as where “I” am going. Being > Birth > Aging and Death.

So it is due to the thought “I am” that brings about the idea of birth, the idea of death and, in turn, this whole mass of suffering. If there is no idea that “I am” – if a self is no longer identified in experience – then there will be no analysis of the birth and death of the self and no suffering.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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kirk5a
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Re: Becoming

Post by kirk5a »

SDC wrote:So it is due to the thought “I am” that brings about the idea of birth, the idea of death and, in turn, this whole mass of suffering. If there is no idea that “I am” – if a self is no longer identified in experience – then there will be no analysis of the birth and death of the self and no suffering.
Maybe it's not quite what you mean, but the trouble goes deeper than easily spotted thoughts or ideas concerning "I am."
"In the same way, friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'

"Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even setting aside the work remaining for non-returners, an infant doesn't have any "ideas" per se, about self.
Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with the simile of the infant? For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'personality,' so how could personality view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to personality view lies within him.
-MN 64
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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SDC
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Re: Becoming

Post by SDC »

kirk5a wrote:Maybe it's not quite what you mean, but the trouble goes deeper than easily spotted thoughts or ideas concerning "I am."
Correct, kirka5. This is what upādāna explains in this particular interpretation – taṇhā prompts a distinction to be drawn in the experience. More specifically, a distinction between internal aspects of experience and external aspects experience, and these internal aspects (which are the five aggregates) receive special attention for obvious reasons. This special attention can be explained as an implied possessiveness (upādāna) over these internal aspects. This prompts this idea that what has been possessed is a self (bhāva). Taṇhā > upādāna > bhāva.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Spiny Norman
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Re: Becoming

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote:
porpoise wrote:Isn't the idea "I am" actually self-view, one of the fetters ( sakkāya-diṭṭhi )? I'm not clear how you're equating this to "bhava".
Exactly. It is an affirmation of this self view. As I said, bhāva in the PS is pointing out a mistake in understanding.
I still don't understand how you're equating self-view ( an underlying tendency ), and bhava ( a process of becoming ).
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Re: Becoming

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote:
porpoise wrote:Also your interpretation of bhava seems to be contradicted by the way the nidanas are defined in MN9 and SN12.2 ( see my earlier post with sections from SN12.2 ).
Not at all, although I can see that it appears so especially when trying to understand it using the three lives interpretation.
I'm not promoting the 3-lives model of DO, I'm just observing that the birth, aging and death nidanas are described in physical terms, not in terms of a self being born, aging and dying.
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kirk5a
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Re: Becoming

Post by kirk5a »

SDC wrote:Correct, kirka5. This is what upādāna explains in this particular interpretation – taṇhā prompts a distinction to be drawn in the experience. More specifically, a distinction between internal aspects of experience and external aspects experience, and these internal aspects (which are the five aggregates) receive special attention for obvious reasons. This special attention can be explained as an implied possessiveness (upādāna) over these internal aspects. This prompts this idea that what has been possessed is a self (bhāva). Taṇhā > upādāna > bhāva.
That's interesting. I'm not sure about that characterization of internal and external though. Given the range of possibilities for bhava, surely the clinging, the possessiveness could apply to both internal and external, or even in the case where the distinction was gone. For example "the universe is my self."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: Becoming

Post by kirk5a »

gavesako wrote:An relevant quote from Ajahn Thate:
There will be just bare awareness paired with its preoccupation in the present. ... This is the mind coming to its own level: the bhavanga.
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_ ... e_Path.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you for that Bhante. In looking through that link, the glossary there defines "bhavanga" as:
Bhavanga: The mind's underlying preoccupation or resting state, which determines its state of being and to which it reverts in between its responses to stimuli.
Bhava-anga. This explanation of "underlying preoccupation" is helping me understand how there are sensual, form, and formless "preoccupations" and hence, bhava - being, existence. And the relationship of all that to craving.

My next question then is how do we understand the difference between sensuality bhava and form bhava?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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