The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:52 pm

Some people asked Nina van gorkom to expand on her comments:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/35027

N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual understanding grows. This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition for practice, patipatti.

============================

Okay, it's clear what the pariyatti is. But what, Nina, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the practice - that the pariyatti "forms up the condition for"?
N: Inspired by Azita's and Christine's good posts, I shall give an example. Yesterday while hiking, we saw the corpse of a yound wild boar. I had attachment to its beauty (the stripes on its back were so cute), and aversion because of the flies on it. I then remembered suttas. especially Theragatha,: "As is that body, so this body will be." This brings us back to reality now. What are we? Only citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away. There is actually life and death at each moment, also now. If there are enough conditions accumulated such happenings can be a reminder for sati and pañña to consider dhamma now and be aware of it, so that there can be direct understanding.

But I must add that its development is a long process and that we cannot expect a quick result of the development. But anyway it is beneficial to reflect on and contemplate nama and rupa as they appear now, and also to develop the "Perfections". It all begins with listening, and so I was glad with Rob K's quote. A good reminder that sati is also anatta, non-self. it cannot be manipulated.

When we listen, and this also includes reading suttas, we come to understand that citta, cetasika and rupa occur now, in daily life. We come to understand more what kusala is, what akusala. How we need the Abhidhamma and also the consideration of these realities when they occur. When looking at a corpse there are so many types of cittas, akusala and some kusala, but kusala is very rare. A concurrence of many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta with understanding.

As I see it: all the moments of listening, considering, practising dana, sila and mental development, and these include the ten bases of kusala, in our life are the training. They are conditions that are accumulated so that direct understanding of dhammas can arise and lead to enlightenment. Howard, you have been discussing samatha with Jon. I would like to add something. The subjects of samatha such as mindfulness of death maranasati,, have the word sati. This, as I see it, has everything to do with satipatthana, the development of right understanding of nama and rupa.

As I showed above: maranasati brings us back to awareness of reality now. Also before the Buddha's time people practised samatha, but the Buddha gave a new dimension to all those meditation subjects. Whatever he taught, the goal was always: eradication of wrong view of self and other defilements through the development of understanding now. Thus, whenever we read about samatha or meditation subjects we should not forget this goal. Also for those who could attain jhana the goal was the same. They should not take their development of samatha and jhanacitta for self. I

shall write more to Joop R about the social aspects of the Dhamma. This is nothing else but practice with satipatthana inspired by the whole Tipitaka, including Abhidhamma! But when I say, satipatthana, I know that direct awareness and understanding are difficult, still being far from it. But, even intellectual understanding helps in our life, to understand ourselves and others, to see the benefit of kusala, the danger of akusala. Those are conditions for the growth of pañña, and, as I said, we should not wish for it to grow fast, that slows down the process. Lodewijk understands your concern that just listening may lead to passivity, sliding down to laziness, not doing anything. But, he says, it is listening with the purpose of considering, understanding and applying what one heard in the circumstances of daily life. The above example shows that there are all the time confrontations desirable or undesirable, events and our reactions to it with kusala citta or akusala citta. During a walk, when we visit my father, there are always things happening. We can learn to live by the Dhamma, we do not have to go far, Dhamma is everywhere.
Nina.

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:54 pm

Dear Dan
I see from your avatar that you ahve an interest in Zen.
you might like this from the Chan people

In a letter, Ta Hui wrote:

If you consider quietude right and commotion wrong, then this is seeking the real aspect by destroying the worldly aspect, seeking nirvana, the peace of extinction, apart from birth and death. When you like the quiet and hate the hubbub, this is just the time to apply effort. Suddenly when in the midst of hubbub, you topple the scene of quietude -- that power surpasses the (meditation) seat and cushion by a million billion times.

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:10 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
I get the sense from these suttas that some forms of clinging are tolerable in the path and practice, or at the very least, are not obstructive to Non-Return. The residue just needs to be dealt with on the final leg to awakening.
That makes sense, indeed.

There are four types of clinging
(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and
rituals, and lastly self view clinging
.

Note that the last three are types of miccha-ditthi, wrong
view(the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle).
These three are
the most dangerous types of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand, see Visuddhimagga
xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates the three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires.

This is hard to comprehend as "sense desire clinging is obvious ... not so the other kinds [the three types of micchaditthi]" Visuddhimagga XVII 246.

So when I was beginning Buddhist studies (still a raw beginner now, but going back a year or two when I was a new fish) I tried to reduce sense desire and did seem to succeed, although looking back it was rather stressful attempting not to watch TV, or enjoy icecream etc. But still, by exerting control there was a reduction in the obvious sense desires.
The problem with this though is that it wasn't even getting at wrongview- it even increased the idea of being able to control!

That is why the path of one of attentuating - by knowing and seeing- silabataparamasa and self view. Then there is the chance for satisampajanna to arise , if conditions coincide.
So if selfview is not seen as wrong, as it arises, if silabataparamasa is not understood as wrong path, then there is no way for the correct path to be known.

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:15 pm

Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk
In the interview Nina van Gorkom says "It is most difficult to be aware of breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air produced by other factors, not breath". It there a slightly different definition of "breath here? What does "air produced by other factors" mean?

This high level Abhidhamma is a bit above my payscale.
If i understand correctly breath is actually rupas conditioned by citta.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:21 pm

robertk wrote:. . .
What is really interesting here, for all the dismissal of meditation practice as having no more significance to Dhamma practice than what sandwich shop one goes to, we see a methodology, while talked about with impersonal terminology, of highly active choosing as to how to act. The "listening" involves, by choice, a considerable amount of intellectual active study and active learning of Abhidhamma categories and concepts which are then, by choice, pressed service as a way of cultivating the conditions for the arising of wisdom.

There is no basis here criticizing meditation practice as has been done in this thread or in the linked interview and linked talk by the teacher of this method.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:28 pm

Majjima Nikaya 64, we read: "
An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]."


Unknowingly, many/most efforts we make in the spiritual realm are tied in with this fetter.

It is good to know this, because this knowing will condition dhamma-vicaya(investigation of Dhamma/dhammas) with sammaviriya (right energy) to learn what the right way is.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:37 pm

robertk wrote:Majjima Nikaya 64, we read: "
An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]."


Unknowingly, many/most efforts we make in the spiritual realm are tied in with this fetter.

It is good to know this, because this knowing will condition dhamma-vicaya(investigation of Dhamma/dhammas) with sammaviriya (right energy) to learn what the right way is.
So you say, but quite honestly, I do not see anything in what you have offered here that shows that your mode of practice is any less susceptible to the exact same problem (or any number of other problems). The reality is that we all start from where we are, with what we have, and there are things that get worked through, which includes "a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances."

The wholesale dismissal of meditation by Sujin and her followers, whether it be vipassana, jhana, or -- as in the linked talk -- metta meditation comes across as both ignorant and unwholesome.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:49 pm

I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:52 pm

robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And your point is?
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:54 pm

robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And this is something that could easily be said by a vipassana meditation teacher.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And your point is?

Sorry, a little earlier in this thread you and sylvester had a conversation:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:

I get the sense from these suttas that some forms of clinging are tolerable in the path and practice, or at the very least, are not obstructive to Non-Return. The residue just needs to be dealt with on the final leg to awakening.
That makes sense, indeed.


Sujin is saying that even right now if lobha is not understood, especially in regard to the path, then that could hinder progress.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:59 pm

robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."

And, of course, no teacher I know of would disagree with that.

But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:05 pm

AN 4.159 wrote:"And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:06 pm

robertk wrote:
Sujin is saying that even right now if lobha is not understood, especially in regard to the path, then that could hinder progress.
Sure, but the reality is, of course, that greed, hatred, and delusion only come fully to an end with full awakening. In the meantime this is stuff which we have to deal with, even as an ariya shy of full awakening, which is why there is sila and bhāvanā as well as study.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:09 pm

daverupa wrote:
AN 4.159 wrote:"And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.
Brilliant. That deserves a lengthy discussion. This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:29 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.



Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:46 pm

Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.



Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.
Could you, would you, be kind enough to elaborate on this rather cryptic response?
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:02 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.



Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.
Could you, would you, be kind enough to elaborate on this rather cryptic response?


It didn't mean to cryptic honest. Possibly because Khun Sujin's ideas where shaped by that environment (Thailand).

There is some paradox here which, considering the subject, is not surprising. The idea that meditation is not for lay people and strong emphasis on developing parami is fairly standard fair but Khun Sujin has kind of turned this on its head with a deep commitment to get to the essence of the teaching in contrast to the possibly superficial religion, which is all around. There is an acceptance of the religion of her culture but also a rejection.

Hopefully my explanation has not caused more confusion tilt.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:11 pm

Mr Man wrote:
It didn't mean to cryptic honest. Possibly because Khun Sujin's ideas where shaped by that environment (Thailand).

There is some paradox here which, considering the subject, is not surprising. The idea that meditation is not for lay people and strong emphasis on developing parami is fairly standard fair but Khun Sujin has kind of turned this on its head with a deep commitment to get to the essence of the teaching in contrast to the possibly superficial religion, which is all around. There is an acceptance of the religion of her culture but also a rejection.

Hopefully my explanation has not caused more confusion tilt.
That was helpful. Thanks.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SamKR » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:08 pm

daverupa wrote:
AN 4.159 wrote:"And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.

:clap:
Cannot possibly be more clear than this.

AN 4.159 wrote:"This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.


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