The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am

Dan74 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:In a sense what you term rites and rituals can serve as a bridge between meditation and "everyday life" in that it is easier to bring a spacious clarity of meditation into a well-rehearsed activity like that than to face the "darts and arrows" in the same spirit.

Of course there are many other good reasons for performing them too. But since we are on the subject of meditation...

Well actually, the topic is about "the causes for wisdom".



Paul, I am probably not in the mood for your sense of humour but people were discussing rites and ritual - so why the seemingly smartarse comment?
The "rules and ritual" business was brought by robertk as a defense of his wholesale rejection of sitting meditation practice.

retrofuturist wrote:Since "attachment to rites and rituals" (as compared to say, "absence of meditation") is one of the three fetters that binds us to avijja (ignorance) and prevents stream-entry, possibly it's a more important (and less beaten to death) subject of discussion on a topic addressing "the causes for wisdom".

And here you go!

If someone is performing a ritual, does it mean (s)he is attached? And if so, could it still be useful before stream-entry?
Also, as has been mentioned above in response to robertk's comments, even if someone starts out the sitting practice with the hindrance of "rules and rituals," that does not mean they are going to be forever stuck there. Insight into what binds is part of the natural unfolding of practice. It is why one does sitting meditation practice.

Image:

Dan wrote:
retro wrote:The topic, and forum in general, needn't always be framed as a relentless defense of sitting meditation and people's chosen practices (as it has been for much of the last 18 pages of discussion).


A long time ago I was debating with Tilt, unable to understand his seemingly vehement attack on Mahayana sectarianism and particularly the term "Hinayana". Then he shared that due to this sectarian propaganda, to effectively slander, the avenue of exploring Theravada remained closed to him for some time. In essence he was denied an opportunity to explore this amazing tradition. A travesty, wouldn't you agree?

I think all ill-informed attacks on a tradition, a lineage or practice, do precisely that - misinform and deny people an opportunity to explore through slander. I am not defensive about my chosen practice - you are reading me entirely wrong. After 10 years I am completely at home with it. Any inadequacies are my own. But I think it is a good idea to correct misinformation and sectarianism when we see it. I try to do the same within my chosen tradition too.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:49 am

Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:Paul, I am probably not in the mood for your sense of humour but people were discussing rites and ritual - so why the seemingly smartarse comment?

Nice to see the word "seemingly" there as it demonstrates that what you said reflects your own perception. There was no humour or smart-arsery intended - merely a statement of fact. This topic is titled "The causes for wisdom" and that is what it is about.

Dan74 wrote:A long time ago I was debating with Tilt, unable to understand his seemingly vehement attack on Mahayana sectarianism and particularly the term "Hinayana". Then he shared that due to this sectarian propaganda, to effectively slander, the avenue of exploring Theravada remained closed to him for some time. In essence he was denied an opportunity to explore this amazing tradition. A travesty, wouldn't you agree?

Not all people are like Tilt.

Dan74 wrote:If someone is performing a ritual, does it mean (s)he is attached? And if so, could it still be useful before stream-entry?

A good question, pertinent to the topic... perhaps someone will take it up?

Dan74 wrote:I think all ill-informed attacks on a tradition, a lineage or practice, do precisely that - misinform and deny people an opportunity to explore through slander.

That's all fine, but that's not how I've interpreted the words from Robert and likeminded individuals in this topic. From what I recall of their postings throughout the topic, they have been very careful to clarify that it's the view underlying what is done that is the significant factor underlying the efficacy of action, and not the corresponding movements and configurations of rupa. In other words, it's "sitting-neutral".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:That's all fine, but that's not how I've interpreted the words from Robert and likeminded individuals in this topic. From what I recall of their postings throughout the topic, they have been very careful to clarify that it's the view underlying what is done that is the significant factor underlying the efficacy of action, and not the corresponding movements and configurations of rupa. In other words, it's "sitting-neutral".
It may be worth going back through this thread and play back the words used by robertk, Virgo, and dhamma follower in relation to sitting practice and how sitting practice has been portrayed in this thread. I don't see anything "sitting-neutral" about it all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:03 am

Greetings Tilt,

It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".

If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.

Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".

If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.

Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Look at robertk's msgs here:

From the OP: But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. -- viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952#p227969


One important issue I want to bring out is that the idea expressed in the opening post that it is by 'paying attention to our experiences' that wisdom develops, seems not really supported by sutta. -- viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=0#p228081


let's think about silabataparamasa. This is one of the things that has to be eliminated for nibbana to arise.

It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.

And even the more subtle - and ostensibly correct - 'contemplating anicca , dukkha, anatta ' at leisure or whatever, is close to an idea of a self that can decide to have these type of contemplations.
The comment about 'observing rising and passing away" . To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this. After all in in truth the elements are rising and falling trillions of times in a second.

Eveyone, even non-buddhist, see/know that things change, that at one moment there is seeing, one moment hearing, that there is a flux of everchanging feelings : but there is an idea of a self who is doing so, there is no real seeing of the actual separation of mind aand matter. -- viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=60#p228510


What more to say of any special practice we think is needed to make vipassana arise. So certainly an idea that by sitting (or standing or walking or talking) or focussing on this or focussing on that , that these actions are neccessary conditions for insight to arise is an aspect of wrong view and silabataparamasa. -- viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=80#p228690
He is not making any distinction between "right" and "wrong" practice that are at obvious or even implied. It seems to be from robertk's standpoint sitting meditation, thinking that it will help develop wisdom, is all wrong view, so those of us here who are finding some difficulty with what is being said here can be excused in light of these sort of comments.

It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".

If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.
Yes, let us see what they have to say and in what context. As it stands now, at best the Sujin followers are being highly unskillful in their presentation of the Sujin criticism of sitting meditation, since it is coming across, to borrow a phrase from the TOS, as "a wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:47 am

Also, it is worth adding that the characterization of meditation by the Sujin followers here and as seen in Nina Van G's linked interview is highly problematic in how sitting meditation is portrayed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SamKR » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:04 am

Eight causes of wisdom in the Buddha's words:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-3
The Buddha is not saying only listening and consideration of Dhamma are the causes of wisdom; there are others too which need intentional effort.

1. Having a teacher
2. Hearing the Dhamma
3. Seclusion
4. Virtue
5. Well penetration in terms of views
6. Abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities
7. Not talking about variety of things except Dhamma, and noble silence
8. Focusing on arising and passing away
SamKR
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".

If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.

Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Hi retro. If I am sitting , and as I happen to be doing now, and cittas associated with wisdom arise (nana-sampayutta) then that is "right ' And if the same type of cittas arise while stamding, while walking . Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.
It is a little different for samathha where for some objects like breath a stable lotus like posture with erect back allowing for long periods without changing posture: but even for samathha the main factor is the type of wisdom that can let go of even subtle wrong concentration. Not easy.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:36 am

Thanks Robert.... makes sense to me.

robertk wrote:Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.

And sounds "sitting-neutral" too...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:Thanks Robert.... makes sense to me.

robertk wrote:Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.

And sound "sitting-neutral" too...

Metta,
Retro. :)

Thanks for picking up this key point, and for the new phrase.
You have a skillful way with words!
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:48 am

robertk wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It would be interesting then to see if one of them would be prepared to differentiate between "right sitting practice" from "wrong sitting practice".

If "wrong sitting practice" isn't anything advocated by Theravada teachers, then the objections are moot.

Robert? Kevin? DF?... any takers?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Hi retro. If I am sitting , and as I happen to be doing now, and cittas associated with wisdom arise (nana-sampayutta) then that is "right ' And if the same type of cittas arise while stamding, while walking . Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.
It is a little different for samathha where for some objects like breath a stable lotus like posture with erect back allowing for long periods without changing posture: but even for samathha the main factor is the type of wisdom that can let go of even subtle wrong concentration. Not easy.
Sitting. I assume that you saying that you are sitting at your desk with computer, but that is not quite what we are talking about, is it? You really have not answered the question, unless you are saying that your comments about sitting meditation here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&p=230761#p230741 are flatly wrong. You might want to be a little more clear?

Have you changed your mind about sitting meditation, or are you going to stand by the thing you said in the msg?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:50 am

Dan74 wrote:[

In a sense what you term rites and rituals can serve as a bridge between meditation and "everyday life" in that it is easier to bring a spacious clarity of meditation into a well-rehearsed activity like that than to face the "darts and arrows" in the same spirit.

Of course there are many other good reasons for performing them too. But since we are on the subject of meditation...


Going back to here, I was in school otherwise I would have replied sooner. The first part I suppose I can agree with although I'm not sure I would call bowing to statues and burning incense really part of everyday life as much as working, or going to school, talking to people, etc. are.

Also, just curious. What are the other good reasons for performing rites and rituals? I also just want to reiterate, I am not utterly opposed to them, I just think they're generally superfluous and not something the Buddha advocated. When I go to a Wat, I bow to the Buddha statue, when I was at a Wat on Vesak, I burned incense and circumambulated the building. But I just do it to be respectful, not because I see any inherent value in doing so.

Edit: This post seems a bit harsh in retrospect, I do have to admit that rites and rituals can serve as a springboard towards cultivating wholesome qualities. I think of this sutta:

"If, when an observance is observed, unskillful qualities grow and skillful qualities wane, then I tell you that that sort of observance is not to be observed. But if, when an observance is observed, unskillful qualities wane and skillful qualities grow, then I tell you that that sort of observance is to be observed.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


:namaste:
Last edited by polarbuddha101 on Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
User avatar
polarbuddha101
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: California

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:51 am

robertk wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Thanks Robert.... makes sense to me.

robertk wrote:Because wisdom leading to vipassana is not dependent at all on posture.

And sound "sitting-neutral" too...

Metta,
Retro. :)

Thanks for picking up this key point, and for the new phrase.
You have a skillful way with words!
It is totally unclear, in light of these comments -- viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&p=230761#p230741 -- that you are at all neutral about sitting meditation as it generally understood here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:52 am

I saw in some earlier posts some feeling that by stressing on wisdom there was a negation of concentration and effort.

The thing is Effort and Concentration are easy to have, the reason being that they arise with both kusala and akusala:
here is the descrption of (viriya)Effort in the Abidhamma:
We read from the Dhammasangani (376):
Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor."


Sounded nice until that last phrase didn't it. That is what wrong effort is.
.

Or Concentration:
As the Dhammasangani makes clear such factors as sukkham (mental ease) and samadhi do not neccesarily mean anything auspicious- it may in fact be only purified lobha: ""What on that occasion is ease (sukkham) the mental pleasure, the mental ease which on that occasion is pleasant, easeful experience born of contact ...What on that occasion is ekaggatta. The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and the power of concentration, WRONG concentration .
'"------------
However, because these wrong concentration states are much less distracting and concentrated than the normal 'distracted"daily life they are naturally attractive and thus deceiving.
Now right effort and right concentration have the same descriptions. But without wisdom factor it is impossible to know the difference.
That is why it makes sense to me to put energy into learning what the Buddha said and to understand the value of patience in regard to the path.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:57 am

robertk wrote:I saw in some earlier posts some feeling that by stressing on wisdom there was a negation of concentration and effort.

The thing is Effort and Concentration are easy to have, the reason being that they arise with both kusala and akusala:
here is the descrption of (viriya)Effort in the Abidhamma:
We read from the Dhammasangani (376):
Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor."


Sounded nice until that last phrase didn't it. That is what wrong effort is.

Or Concentration:
As the Dhammasangani makes clear such factors as sukkham (mental ease) and samadhi do not neccesarily mean anything auspicious- it may in fact be only purified lobha: ""What on that occasion is ease (sukkham) the mental pleasure, the mental ease which on that occasion is pleasant, easeful experience born of contact ...What on that occasion is ekaggatta. The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and the power of concentration, WRONG concentration .
'"------------
However, because these wrong concentration states are much less distracting and concentrated than the normal 'distracted"daily life they are naturally attractive and thus deceiving.

That is why it makes sense to me to put energy into learning what the Buddha said and to understand the value of patience in regard to the path.
So, you still think that these comments -- viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&p=230761#p230741 -- are correct? And you still think that sitting meditation is, at best, problematic?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:06 am

robertk wrote:I saw in some earlier posts some feeling that by stressing on wisdom there was a negation of concentration and effort.

The thing is Effort and Concentration are easy to have, the reason being that they arise with both kusala and akusala:
here is the descrption of (viriya)Effort in the Abidhamma:
We read from the Dhammasangani (376):
Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor."


Sounded nice until that last phrase didn't it. That is what wrong effort is.

Or Concentration:
As the Dhammasangani makes clear such factors as sukkham (mental ease) and samadhi do not neccesarily mean anything auspicious- it may in fact be only purified lobha: ""What on that occasion is ease (sukkham) the mental pleasure, the mental ease which on that occasion is pleasant, easeful experience born of contact ...What on that occasion is ekaggatta. The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and the power of concentration, WRONG concentration .
'"------------
However, because these wrong concentration states are much less distracting and concentrated than the normal 'distracted"daily life they are naturally attractive and thus deceiving.

That is why it makes sense to me to put energy into learning what the Buddha said and to understand the value of patience in regard to the path.
Why don't you quote the section on right concentration?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:11 am

Actually I was going to add that in. Now added.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:13 am

robertk wrote:Actually I was going to add that in. Now added.
Okay, and now, how about answering my questions:

So, you still think that these comments -- viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&p=230761#p230741 -- are correct? And you still think that sitting meditation is, at best, problematic?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:30 am

robertk wrote:I saw in some earlier posts some feeling that by stressing on wisdom there was a negation of concentration and effort.

The thing is Effort and Concentration are easy to have, the reason being that they arise with both kusala and akusala:
here is the descrption of (viriya)Effort in the Abidhamma:
We read from the Dhammasangani (376):
Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor."


Sounded nice until that last phrase didn't it. That is what wrong effort is.
Just like the mindfulness of breathing passage from the Visuddhimagga, there is a serious context problem here. Tell us what is actually being talked about in what context with (376)? You might want to quote Dhammasangani (13).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:06 am

It is totally unclear, in light of these comments -- viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&p=230761#p230741 -- that you are at all neutral about sitting meditation as it generally understood here.


Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

My claim is that the path is a purely mental state, not at all dependent on posture. It is, to coin Retro, 'posture neutral'.

However if one believes that insight depends on being in a certain posture, or if one thinks that some technique is what vipassana is or leads to vipassana, then this belief is, so I claim, an indication of silabataparamasa.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture as I mentioned above.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSNbot Media, palchi and 6 guests