The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:09 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The preference for "formal" meditation is because it what the Buddha taught and because it works.

Here is a quote from a popular book by Venerable Gunaratana,Mindfulness in Plain English:

One of the most difficult things to learn is that mindfulness is not dependent on any emotional or mental state.. You don't need to move at a snail's pace to be mindful. You don't even need to be calm. You can be mindful while solving problems in intensive calculus. You can be mindful in the middle of a football scrimmage. You can even be mindful in the midst of a raging fury. Mental and physical activities are no bar to mindfulness.
Sure, but don't forget that this is in a broader context of doing meditation practice that helps set up the conditions that give rise to mindfulness.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:28 am

dhamma follower wrote:Being an ex of the meditation camp that you are referring to...

Why do there have to be camps? And why are the KS followers so keen to define themselves as a camp and waste time criticising other camps (interpretations of the Buddha vacana)? It's that constant rubbishing (and simplistic parodying of views) of the other camps that I found completely off-putting when I met a few in person. Quite unlike the tolerant discussion I find in other off-line groups, who are usually prepared to compare ideas and experiences without trying to show that they have the only right interpretation. I found it baffling, since there is clearly some good knowledge in that group, but I was perplexed that (with the notable exception of Robert) they had little interest in discussing what we had in common.

That you (and the other KS followers) recognise that there was a problem with how you were practising, and are now practising in a way that you feel is more effective is excellent. Many followers of the Buddha Dhamma believe that they have had analogous recognitions that changed the way they viewed the Dhamma. It would be more useful to share these experiences and views, rather than trying to prove that one view is better than another (which seems contrary to the way the Buddha taught).

[Of course, this camp thing seems to be very common on-line, in forums such as this one, but in my experience is generally the exceptions off-line.]

:anjali:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:15 am

mikenz66 wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Being an ex of the meditation camp that you are referring to...

Why do there have to be camps?



It is just a way of saying "You are describing exactly where I was as well as many people I know" -which is a fact. No offence intended. I apologize if any.

It would be more useful to share these experiences and views, rather than trying to prove that one view is better than another


I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?

In the end, views don't belong to anyone, Let's just discuss views :-)?

Brgds,

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:24 am

dhamma follower wrote:It is just a way of saying "You are describing exactly where I was as well as many people I know" -which is a fact. No offence intended. I apologize if any.
No offense, but the problem is that you are making a very serious mistake in thinking that your failure with meditation is something that you can generalize to everyone else who is not you.

I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?
That is actually very sad, and i think that points to a very contracted view of the Dhamma, but then that is my opinion, and as I do not have to agree with your opinion, you do not have to agree with mine.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:38 am

dhamma follower wrote:
I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?

In the end, views don't belong to anyone, Let's just discuss views :-)?



Hi dhamma follower
Don't the above two sentences contradict each other?

I'm interested in how established you are in you views and what is their source?

Are your views fluid and you wish to explore or have they been fixed?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:11 am

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?

In the end, views don't belong to anyone, Let's just discuss views :-)?



Hi dhamma follower
Don't the above two sentences contradict each other?

I'm interested in how established you are in you views and what is their source?

Are your views fluid and you wish to explore or have they been fixed?


Hi Mr Man,

They don't. Views, as any reality, don't belong to anyone, ok?
There are however, right view and wrong view.

The first sentence was just to say that it is inevitable to try to prove one's view is right if one think it is right. Everyone is doing that here.

If we don't think too much in terms of "my view" or "his view", one can better focus on whether this view is right or wrong. That's it.

The source of my views come from my so far, limited studying of the Tipitaka. Ajhan Sujin's understanding has influenced mine.

i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.

Brgds,

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:It is just a way of saying "You are describing exactly where I was as well as many people I know" -which is a fact. No offence intended. I apologize if any.
No offense, but the problem is that you are making a very serious mistake in thinking that your failure with meditation is something that you can generalize to everyone else who is not you.


What do you call "success with meditation", Tilt? The jhanas? 1rst insight? 1rst Path? Arahant Path?

It is quite pointless to talk about failure and success here, while we are simply discuss Dhammic points.

brgds,

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:13 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?

In the end, views don't belong to anyone, Let's just discuss views :-)?



Hi dhamma follower
Don't the above two sentences contradict each other?

I'm interested in how established you are in you views and what is their source?

Are your views fluid and you wish to explore or have they been fixed?


Hi Mr Man,

They don't. Views, as any reality, don't belong to anyone, ok?
There are however, right view and wrong view.

The first sentence was just to say that it is inevitable to try to prove one's view is right if one think it is right. Everyone is doing that here.

If we don't think too much in terms of "my view" or "his view", one can better focus on whether this view is right or wrong. That's it.

The source of my views come from my so far, limited studying of the Tipitaka. Ajhan Sujin's understanding has influenced mine.

i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.

Brgds,


Hi dhamma follower
I'm not sure of the relevance of "right view" or "wrong view" at this point. "Right view" is something rather different. It is not a position that we take up.

If we have "right view" do you think that we will still feel the need to "try to prove one's view is right"? I also don't think that everyone here is trying to prove that their view is "right".

What you are putting forward are your views or Khun Sujin's views, which as you say are conditioned. Or is there an implication that you are becoming or that Khun Sujin is a conduit?
Last edited by Mr Man on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:11 pm

robertk wrote:But if one then tries to make it happen, or thinks they should focus on the fingers or the feelings or whatever their object of choice is then that shows a lack of understanding of how incredibly anatta and uncontrollable is each moment.

A mind which is incapable of remaining focused on an object of choice is not a cause for wisdom. There would be no development of concentration in that case. And therefore, no knowledge and vision of things as they really are.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:29 pm

It's interesting to read about Ajahn Chah's early struggles with meditation. This is when he'd been a monk for three years:
When I wasn't trying to do anything in particular, my mind was relatively at ease. But whenever I determined to make the mind unify in samādhi, it went out of control. "What's going on here," I wondered. "Why is this happening?"
...
Why? Because the willpower I was using was tainted with clinging and attachment. I didn't know what was going on. All that frustration and hardship was coming up because I was bringing craving into the meditation.

http://www.ajahnchah.org/pdf/unshakeable_peace.pdf

But it would certainly be learning the wrong lesson from such struggles to think "meditation is unskillful, there's craving involved, actually everything is anatta and uncontrollable"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:54 pm

robertk wrote:Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.


Right. But you are leaving out all the causes for insight prior to this. This is what matters.

robertk wrote:However if one believes that insight depends on being in a certain posture,


Who is saying this? Insight depends on wisdom.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:00 pm

RobertK,

RobertK wrote:Some posts suggested that silabataparamasa only applied to things like dog duty asectics and other extreme practices.
So I repost this to make it clear that silabataparamsa can ve very subtle.


VsM wrote:267. Another [thinks] through rules-and-vows(silabataparamasa) clinging, “... So rules-andvows clinging is a condition for all three, namely, the sense-desire, fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming with their analysis and their synthesis. The material and immaterial becomings are the results of true jhana: extra-ordinary degrees of mahakusala.


Bolded portions are mine.

1) In that quote it doesn't say that meditation is rites and rituals.
Please note,
2nd) what is rejected is CLINGING, CLINGING to rites and rituals.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:07 pm

Alex123 wrote:

robertk wrote:However if one believes that insight depends on being in a certain posture,


Who is saying this? Insight depends on wisdom.
No one is saying that except the Sujin people. It is part of distorting caricature of meditation that is part of the Sujin talking points as a way dismissing meditation.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:34 pm

Hi DF,
dhamma follower wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Being an ex of the meditation camp that you are referring to...

Why do there have to be camps?



It is just a way of saying "You are describing exactly where I was as well as many people I know" -which is a fact. No offence intended. I apologize if any.

As I said, many of us have realised that much of what they were doing in meditation was fuelling a sense of self, etc, etc. These are not insights unique to KS and her students. Your conclusion was to consider the exercise a failure and choose another path. Which is fine. My conclusion was that actually seeing that those problems are there was progress, and that the teachers I have been working with actually understood those issues quite well.
dhamma follower wrote:
It would be more useful to share these experiences and views, rather than trying to prove that one view is better than another


I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?

I'm sorry, but that's certainly what it sounds like. And it's definitely what I experienced when I met some KS students. There was a very strong pressure to admit that what I was doing was wrong. To be fair, perhaps that's the agreed style of that group, to meet and argue passionately over such things. It may be useful in the context of the group. But to impose it on someone who just wanted to meet and discuss Dhamma was not a very productive way of going about it.
dhamma follower wrote:In the end, views don't belong to anyone, Let's just discuss views :-)?

Since I don't think either of us are claiming to have got beyond having a sense of self, and views about various things, we are actually still talking about your view and my view.

:anjali:
Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:08 am

dhamma follower wrote:i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.
Of course you do have a choice. Why would you think otherwise?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:10 am

mikenz66 wrote:
It is just a way of saying "You are describing exactly where I was as well as many people I know" -which is a fact. No offence intended. I apologize if any.

As I said, many of us have realised that much of what they were doing in meditation was fuelling a sense of self, etc, etc. These are not insights unique to KS and her students.

:anjali:
Mike


I think It is here that Robert made his comment:

I think that many of the meditation groups do say that insight can arise anywhere,
so it is not clear why they then seem to preference certain activities...


To which I gave my answer....

Since I don't think either of us are claiming to have got beyond having a sense of self, and views about various things, we are actually still talking about your view and my view


I believe it is always helpful to be reminded that views don't belong to anyone. That's where the greatness of the Buddha's teaching can affect our ocean of ignorance and wrong views.

Beside, views are also a moment-to-moment business, rise and fall. The danger is taking views to be yours or mine. It is bound to happen as long as we are not a sotapana. However, at anytime, there can be a moment of understanding that they are not mine, which is right understanding, and the path is being built, at that moment, before another moment of akusala might arise again.

Brgds,

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:22 am

dhamma follower wrote:Beside, views are also a moment-to-moment business, rise and fall. The danger is taking views to be yours or mine. It is bound to happen as long as we are not a sotapana. However, at anytime, there can be a moment of understanding that they are not mine, which is right understanding, and the path is being built, at that moment, before another moment of akusala might arise again.
This attempt at impersonal language really make little sense and all it seems to is dis-empower you guys from actually doing any real practice, or keeps you guys from recognizing what your actual practice is.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:33 am

dhamma follower wrote:What do you call "success with meditation", Tilt? The jhanas? 1rst insight? 1rst Path? Arahant Path?
To be able to meditate when I am really quite ill or in pain. The rest is of little direct interest to me.

It is quite pointless to talk about failure and success here
You opened that door by your own accounting of your failure at meditation and generalizing from that to everyone else, and by your unwarranted lobha business about doing walking meditation slowly.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:34 am

dhamma follower wrote: and the path is being built, at that moment,


Hi dhamma follower
So the path is somthing that we accumulate?

I also wondered If you could come back to the following question, which you missed: "What you are putting forward are your views or Khun Sujin's views, which as you say are conditioned. Or is there an implication that you are becoming or that Khun Sujin is a conduit?"
Thanks.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:13 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:What do you call "success with meditation", Tilt? The jhanas? 1rst insight? 1rst Path? Arahant Path?
To be able to meditate when I am really quite ill or in pain.


Dear Tilt,

Could you please explaine the word "meditation" here? What kind of bhavana you are referring to?

I'd appreciate if you could explain it in term of paramatha dhammas, what is the object, what kind of citta etc... But if you don't want to, that's fine.

Tks and brgds,

D.F


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