Virgo wrote: Deliberate meditation is not the problem at all, wrong concentration is.
Wrong concentration, and what might that be? Wrong based upon what?
Obtaining it, and even attaining access concentration is extremely rare as the Visuddhimagga distinctly points out.
Quote the passage, please.
Many times people take attachment as wholesome when trying to develop samatha and only develop wrong concentration because of it, this is of no help at all. People can also take attachment for metta, or other unwholesome mental factors as wholesome and so on. If the right wholesome cetasikas aren't present, there is no eight-fold-path present at a given time.
Now here is the problem with your position, the assumption that everything must be perfect before meditation can be entered upon, and everything else is wrong meditation. What suttas actually support your position?
Just because one is sitting attempting to focus on an object does not mean one is cultivating Right Concentration at all.
And it does not mean that it wrong concentration, nor does it mean that it cannot become right concentration.
As the texts make clear, no one at this time has the ability to master jhana (even the first jhana) to use it as a basis for insight, therefore thinking they are developing Right Concentration when they attempt samatha is rather wrong.
Show us a sutta that states that, which brings us to:
tiltbillings wrote:In other words, what was utterly dismissed was the traditional metta practices as we see in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga that talks about deliberately cultivating metta.
Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight.
You make my point. In the talk you linked the triumphalist smugness of the all the participants in that talk towards those who practice metta meditation finds its roots in this, it would seem.
It's just clinging, it's not detachment.
And here is your failure: you don't know what is in the heart/minds of those doing meditation. You have not a clue, and even Sujin says in that talk that you do not have a clue, but you -- and even she -- makes the serious mistake of assuming that you know. You do not.
It takes a very developed kind of panna to develop samatha.
Cart before the horse. I'll go with suttas