The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

dhamma follower wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi dhamma follower
Couldn’t we say “meditation” and your “consideration” are equal?
Well, I would'nt call wise consideration or vipassana bhavana an activity. They arise by conditions, not because someone tries to do it. Yoniso manasikara doesn't arise because I decide: now I shall have wise yonisomanasikara. That is the gist of the argument so far. The difference comes when someone considers vipassana bhavana to mean an activiter called meditation that one can actively do.
Hi dhamma follower
So when you said "I would not be able to assert to myself that her views are right if there had not been enough consideration from my own part." So that consideration was "Yoniso manasikara" and that "Yoniso manasikara" happened because the right conditions were there? It was not an activity? Amd the "consideration" was not touched or tainted?
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Virgo wrote: Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight.
Hi Virgo
Who is the "We"?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
Virgo wrote: Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight.
Hi Virgo
Who is the "We"?
The Sujin followers, I would guess, given that the talk linked by Virgo was a Q&A with Sujin and her followers, they believe stuff like what Virgo has written in his msgs.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Virgo wrote: Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight.
Hi Virgo
Who is the "We"?
The Sujin followers, I would guess, given that the talk linked by Virgo was a Q&A with Sujin and her followers, they believe stuff like what Virgo has written in his msgs.
Hi Tilt,
It seems like rather an odd colective belief to hold. There appears to be very strong groupthink amongst the Sujin followers here.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote: It seems like rather an odd colective belief to hold. There appears to be very strong groupthink amongst the Sujin followers here.
That impression is certainly reinforced by the linked Q&A with Sujin.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Mr Man wrote:[
Hi Tilt,
It seems like rather an odd colective belief to hold. There appears to be very strong groupthink amongst the Sujin followers here.
Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?

I wonder have you ever met any other people that have similar ideas to a teacher? Or would you say this is a unique phenomena ?

For your interest in Sujin Boriharnwanket and her views on Metta, have you read thhis book:
http://www.amazon.com/Metta-Kindness-Bu ... 1897633149" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
also availble free here: http://openlibrary.org/works/OL9867081W/Metta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this work Deeds of Merit by Sujin is also worth a look at it.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Hi robertk
robertk wrote: Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?
So their study is conditioning their view? What is the motivation or movement towards study? Is it different to the movement towards meditation? Is it being driven by different forces? Is there a higher intention?
robertk wrote:I wonder have you ever met any other people that have similar ideas to a teacher? Or would you say this is a unique phenomena?
I have. It is normal. A pheonomana of world. somthing to investigate.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk
robertk wrote: Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?
So their study is conditioning their view? What is the motivation or movement towards study? Is it different to the movement towards meditation? Is it being driven by different forces? Is there a higher intention?



Of course their study conditions their views, . I am sure if I read you right, do you have doubts that it does?
It is a purely impersonal process.
Take the case of DF. She was posting here on Dhammawheel for a while.

Then one day she sent me a pm asking me something and I think if she could meet Sujin. So at a convenient time, on her way home from her yearly long stays at a Myanmar meditation center she stopped over in Thailand and met Sujin for a short discussion. I was in Vietnam or Cambodia or somewhere so didn't even meet her.

Why, out of all the people on Dhammawheel was she interested in what I happened to write: even now almost 2 years later my total posts ad up to 700.
whereas some members have 15,000: you would think she would have been more influenced by one of them..

Or Beautiful Mind, he went to meet Sujin in Hua Hin last month, and he writes - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p227593-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; how he 'hogged the mike"- for the 2 hours he was there . I see he is now writing on DSG and is unconvinced by anything out of Abhidhamma and I think favours a slighly Mahayana approach (sorry if I got your position wrong BM)- which is of course fine.


Myriad conditions work together to decide what we like and don't like, think or don't think.
Some people love Abhidhamma and thrive on it. Some love it but it makes them dry and distant. Some misinterpret it. Some get attached to it. Some reject it.
But why these differences.
It is all by conditions, there is no self who is like a manager deciding this and that. It is merely wisdom arising, or ignorance, or desire, or wrong view: and these conditioned mental factors, which always arises in association with cetana are performing the various functions.
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Hi robertk
robertk wrote:

Of course their study conditions their views, . I am sure if I read you right, do you have doubts that it does?
It is a purely impersonal process.

It is no more or no less impersonal than any other process. On a conventional leval we would say that they are being guided by the teacher. The teacher is conditioning the thought process of the student. You have put your faith in the teacher. Your insight and understanding has come from the teacher.

But is the motivation that drives, is it any different to what drives someone to formal meditation? Are you not coming from the same place?
robertk wrote: Take the case of DF. She was psoting here for a while,
Then one day she sent me a pm asking me something and I think if she could meet Sujin. So at a convenient time, on her way home from her yearly long stays at a Myanmar meditation center she stopped over in Thailand and met Sujin for a short discussion. I was in Vietnam or Cambodia or somewhere so didnt even meet her.

Why, out of all the people on Dhammawheel was she interested in what I happened to write: even now almost 2 years later my total posts ad up to 700.
whereas some members have 15,000: you would think she would have been more influenced by one of them..

Or Beautiful Mind, he went to meet Sujin in Hua Hin last month, and he writes - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p227593-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; how he 'hogged the mike"- for the 2 hours he was there . I see he is now writing on DSG and is unconvinced by anything out of Abhidhamma and I think favours a slighly Mahayana approach (sorry if I got your position wrong BM)- which is of course fine.
Why do you think it is? Does DF have barami? Was she ripe? Do you think that followers of other teachers do not feel the same?
robertk wrote:
Myriad conditions work together to decide what we like and dont like with regard to views.
Some people love Abhidhamma and thrive on it. Some love it but it makes them dry and distant. Some misinterpret it. Some get attached to it. Some reject it.
like anything else
robertk wrote:But why these differences.
It is all by conditions, there is no self who is like a manager deciding this and that. It is merely wisdom arising, or ignorance, or desire, or wrong view: and these conditioned mental factors, which always arises in assocation with cetana are performing the various functions.
Is that your realization?
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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dhamma follower wrote: I just don't agree that sati-sampajana is the same thing than actively paying attention to a situation. In my understanding, it is rather understanding which arises and approach a reality with sati, which is called sati- sampajana. Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it. Understanding of its conditions, however, is a factor that can condition it to arise.
Where, in the following, do you see the requirement, the precondition, for "right understanding of reality"? Where do you see the suggestion "we can not actively make it arise"?
"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?

[1] "There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'
Last edited by kirk5a on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 »

Hello DF,
dhamma follower wrote: i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "All things are anatta"? Of course you can do it right now. This is right view.
Or
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "Atta really exists. I wonder what it is..."? Of course you can do it right now. This is wrong view.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk
robertk wrote:

Of course their study conditions their views, . I am sure if I read you right, do you have doubts that it does?
It is a purely impersonal process.

It is no more or no less impersonal than any other process. On a conventional leval we would say that they are being guided by the teacher. The teacher is conditioning the thought process of the student. You have put your faith in the teacher. Your insight and understanding has come from the teacher.

But is the motivation that drives, is it any different to what drives someone to formal meditation? Are you not coming from the same place?

?
Dear Mr. man

I think motivation is conditioned by various factors, such as right view and wrong view?
You have mentioned how the views put forward on this thread are ""rather an odd collective belief to hold" and how there "strong groupthink among sujin follwers here" so presumably you believe the points I made are conditioned primarily by wrong view, or if you prefer conventional terms, illogical or ridiculous (or simply odd).
For me I was happily putting them forward but if you can show that they are in opposition to the Theravada Tipitika and ancient Commentaries that would be great, please do.

For your point about views being "no more personal or impersonal than anything else", I believe it is Theravada axiom that all things are anatta, impersonal, not self...
It is like the Visuddhimagga says (xvii312)


"The absence of interestedness on the part of ignorance, such as 'Formations [sankhara] must be made to occur by me, or on the part of formations, such as 'vinnana must be made to ocur by us'. One who sees this rightly abandons self view by understanding the absence of a maker."

Maybe we like to think that we have freewill and that we can choose to do good. Or why not choose to be always fearless, never nervous. Even we are in a plane crash why not just choose to be perfectly unworried?

It seems to me in fact that fearlessness gradually comes about from seeing into anatta (at whatever level) and uncontrollabilty as one is wearing away the idea of a self who suffers, "who" needs protection; it erases, so it seems, the idea of a body that is under anyones control.

But this is just my idea, please feel free to disagree.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

robertk wrote:

Myriad conditions work together to decide what we like and dont like with regard to views.
Some people love Abhidhamma and thrive on it. Some love it but it makes them dry and distant. Some misinterpret it. Some get attached to it. Some reject it.
like anything else
yes exactly, that was my point. Next year DF may decide to be a Tibetan Nun, or I might join the moonies.
But it is not someone inside the machine making such decisions, it is a purely conditioned process. That is what I believe (for now).

I can understand it seems a odd belief, that every moment has conditions, so please help out aand show why it is in opposition to the Theravada (or if you want to give me a nudge towards the moonies , why they have it right)
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Alex123
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 »

robertk wrote:Myriad conditions work together to decide what we like and dont like with regard to views.
"Myriad..." Is this conceptual or ultimate truth?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:[
Hi Tilt,
It seems like rather an odd colective belief to hold. There appears to be very strong groupthink amongst the Sujin followers here.
Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?
Well, the linked Q&A with Sujin and the linked interview you did with Nina Van G interestingly points to the source of the flavor of what we are seeing here.
I wonder have you ever met any other people that have similar ideas to a teacher? Or would you say this is a unique phenomena ?
Group-think certainly can be a characteristic of students following particular teacher, but not always.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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