contemplating the aggregates

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Assaji
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by Assaji »

Hi Alan,
alan... wrote:can this be done in sitting meditation? how does one contemplate each aggregate? in particular consciousness?
The most detailed instructions are given in Chachakka sutta.
For some aggregates not covered there, see the references to the Conditioned Arising diagram.

Though this can be done without samadhi, full development of insight requires the development of samadhi.

Best wishes, Dmytro
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retrofuturist
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan...,
alan... wrote:i mentioned this somewhere before, the idea that one can watch the aggregates forever without knowing the dhamma with no progress, but once one knows the dhamma the mind puts it together without verbalization. whereas learning the dhamma and then pondering on it intellectually is not the same thing. like if you don't know about impermanence and just practice mindfulness you won't progress but if you know about it then you are subconsciously looking for it but not intellectualizing about it. or at least i think that's what you're saying.
Yes, pretty much.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by tiltbillings »

alan... wrote:
i think this is a good point. i mentioned this somewhere before, the idea that one can watch the aggregates forever without knowing the dhamma with no progress,
It depends upon what you mean by "watching the aggregates."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Kamran
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by Kamran »

One practice that Joseph Goldstein mentions in his Sattipathana talks that I find fun and skillful is to pause for a split second when you are about to do something and you can sense that "about to" moment - that's intention, or the mental formation aggregate.

I like to try and see the 5 aggregates (mental processes) at the 6 sense doors. For example, if noting "thinking, thinking" at the mind door I could contemplate the aggregates as follows:

1. Physical/form - brain.
2. Feelings - was the thought pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.
3. Perception - recognized it as a thought about something I had experienced (family, work, etc.).
4. Mental Formation - the intention or action to make the thought arise (its very helpful to me note intention)
5. Conciousness/Citta - was aware of and observed the thought.

I have found the 5 aggregates very helpful for understanding my meditation experience. For instance, by focusing on the breath you make the conciousness process the foreground process, and the thinking process becomes a background process. When a thought arises while you are watching the breath it really does seem like a separate process generated the thought. The conciousness process is reliable; the other mental processes not so much :)
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tiltbillings
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by tiltbillings »

Toothache:
1. There is form, i.e. the tooth as matter/hardness.
2. There is a painful feeling.
3. There is a sight-, touch-, pain- perception of the tooth.
4. There is by the way of volitional reactions: resentment at pain, fear of possible consequences, greed for physical well-being, etc.
5. There is consciousness, -- an awareness of all this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan...
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by alan... »

tiltbillings wrote:
alan... wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Good stuff here. This is not just theoretical; rather, the khandhas are talked about in terms of actual practice by a highly experienced and learned medutation teacher.
i need to make time for this.
Time is always a problem, but quite frankly, the Dhamma takes time and takes work. Find the time to listen to te first talk. If it speaks to you, then you'll will find the time for therest, if not move on to something else.
yeah i know. i set aside at minimum of one hour for meditation each day, every day, and i read suttas or other dhamma works for about two hours a day or more when i don't have work. i just am not big on audio stuff as it doesn't fit in well with my equipment, i have a desk top pc and sitting in front of it listening to a dhamma talk doesn't work so well for me because i have a fairly busy life and my phone won't play them :(
alan...
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by alan... »

Kamran wrote:One practice that Joseph Goldstein mentions in his Sattipathana talks that I find fun and skillful is to pause for a split second when you are about to do something and you can sense that "about to" moment - that's intention, or the mental formation aggregate.

I like to try and see the 5 aggregates (mental processes) at the 6 sense doors. For example, if noting "thinking, thinking" at the mind door I could contemplate the aggregates as follows:

1. Physical/form - brain.
2. Feelings - was the thought pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.
3. Perception - recognized it as a thought about something I had experienced (family, work, etc.).
4. Mental Formation - the intention or action to make the thought arise (its very helpful to me note intention)
5. Conciousness/Citta - was aware of and observed the thought.

I have found the 5 aggregates very helpful for understanding my meditation experience. For instance, by focusing on the breath you make the conciousness process the foreground process, and the thinking process becomes a background process. When a thought arises while you are watching the breath it really does seem like a separate process generated the thought. The conciousness process is reliable; the other mental processes not so much :)
yes that's what i was saying, consciousness is more or less constant while the others come and go. unless asleep or anesthetized, consciousness is always present. heck some dream yogis and yoga nidra people would argue that consciousness is present even in non REM sleep and under anesthesia! so since this process is always happening, mustn't the others happen within it? without consciousness one could not experience any of the other things.
alan...
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by alan... »

tiltbillings wrote:Toothache:
1. There is form, i.e. the tooth as matter/hardness.
2. There is a painful feeling.
3. There is a sight-, touch-, pain- perception of the tooth.
4. There is by the way of volitional reactions: resentment at pain, fear of possible consequences, greed for physical well-being, etc.
5. There is consciousness, -- an awareness of all this.[/b]
i like the first person perspective, thanks. again though it comes back to consciousness, in the end isn't consciousness the thing you're watching as it all takes place within it?
Last edited by alan... on Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by tiltbillings »

alan... wrote:
yeah i know. i set aside at minimum of one hour for meditation each day, every day, and i read suttas or other dhamma works for about two hours a day or more when i don't have work. i just am not big on audio stuff as it doesn't fit in well with my equipment, i have a desk top pc and sitting in front of it listening to a dhamma talk doesn't work so well for me because i have a fairly busy life and my phone won't play them :(
The talks I linked are quite good, but then pretty anything Goldstein does is quite good. Reading a Dhamma book or listening to a Dhamma talk, both can be somewhat meditative. Sit in chair, turn on the talk on your lap top and shut your eyes and just listen.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan...
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by alan... »

tiltbillings wrote:
alan... wrote:
yeah i know. i set aside at minimum of one hour for meditation each day, every day, and i read suttas or other dhamma works for about two hours a day or more when i don't have work. i just am not big on audio stuff as it doesn't fit in well with my equipment, i have a desk top pc and sitting in front of it listening to a dhamma talk doesn't work so well for me because i have a fairly busy life and my phone won't play them :(
The talks I linked are quite good, but then pretty anything Goldstein does is quite good. Reading a Dhamma book or listening to a Dhamma talk, both can be somewhat meditative. Sit in chair, turn on the talk on your lap top and shut your eyes and just listen.
no lap top lol! i'll see what i can do though, i barely get my meditation time without a fuss and we just got a new puppy :roll: i'm only able to read so much because books are easily portable and my desk top is only in one spot.

i do appreciate them though and i want to hear them, i wish there was a transcript for them as i could read them on my phone at work or something. or do you know of an app or something that would allow me to play them on a droid? mine says flash player nine is needed but not compatible with my device.
SamKR
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by SamKR »

alan... wrote:...consciousness is more or less constant while the others come and go. unless asleep or anesthetized, consciousness is always present. heck some dream yogis and yoga nidra people would argue that consciousness is present even in non REM sleep and under anesthesia! so since this process is always happening, mustn't the others happen within it? without consciousness one could not experience any of the other things.
No. Viññāṇa is inconstant like other aggregates.
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by Spiny Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:Toothache:
1. There is form, i.e. the tooth as matter/hardness.
2. There is a painful feeling.
3. There is a sight-, touch-, pain- perception of the tooth.
4. There is by the way of volitional reactions: resentment at pain, fear of possible consequences, greed for physical well-being, etc.
5. There is consciousness, -- an awareness of all this.
So in this case No. 5 is mind-consciousness, but eye-consciousness etc occur at No. 3?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
alan...
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by alan... »

SamKR wrote:
alan... wrote:...consciousness is more or less constant while the others come and go. unless asleep or anesthetized, consciousness is always present. heck some dream yogis and yoga nidra people would argue that consciousness is present even in non REM sleep and under anesthesia! so since this process is always happening, mustn't the others happen within it? without consciousness one could not experience any of the other things.
No. Viññāṇa is inconstant like other aggregates.
i'm confused. how can it be inconstant just like the others? i understand it is inconstant but it must have more consistency than the other four. you cannot be conscious of feeling without consciousness, nor anything else. consciousness is the only one that runs pretty much all the time unless asleep or dead (before rebirth or nibbana or whatever). consciousness is the light bulb and the other aggregates are the film strip and screen. without the light bulb you won't be able to make anything out, it will just be darkness. unless i'm missing something?
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Polar Bear
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by Polar Bear »

Maybe he just meant that consciousness is always changing, events of consciousness arise and pass away (or flow) all the time. So consciousness is inconstant, if there were no eye, or no forms, there would be no eye-consciousness and we all know that people can go blind. So eye-consciousness is inconstant in that sense too. The main thing is that all forms of consciousness arise dependent on conditions and if those conditions cease then consciousness will cease as well. Consciousness can't exist all on its own, it is a product of conditions just like everything else and because of that it will never be constant or permanent or reliable as I, me, or mine.
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:

"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.[1] Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
alan...
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Re: contemplating the aggregates

Post by alan... »

polarbuddha101 wrote:Maybe he just meant that consciousness is always changing, events of consciousness arise and pass away (or flow) all the time. So consciousness is inconstant, if there were no eye, or no forms, there would be no eye-consciousness and we all know that people can go blind. So eye-consciousness is inconstant in that sense too. The main thing is that all forms of consciousness arise dependent on conditions and if those conditions cease then consciousness will cease as well. Consciousness can't exist all on its own, it is a product of conditions just like everything else and because of that it will never be constant or permanent or reliable as I, me, or mine.
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:

"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.[1] Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:namaste:
oh okay, probably. that makes sense.
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