How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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BlackBird
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by BlackBird »

If I may [ :soap: ] rebirth denial is starting to resemble a dead horse. It seems unlikely that any evidence is going to convince Craig, and likewise Craig I feel you're wasting precious time trying to bring others around to the idea that "We simply don't know" if indeed that's your idea - I'm sorry I don't know.

I know I jumped in all guns blazing - opinions at the ready, but that was a foolish mistake.
For the sake of harmony in this community, perhaps we should just let go.

[/ :soap: ]

Sorry guys :embarassed:

Have a good one.
Jack
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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

BlackBird wrote:If I may [ :soap: ] rebirth denial is starting to resemble a dead horse. It seems unlikely that any evidence is going to convince Craig, and likewise Craig I feel you're wasting precious time trying to bring others around to the idea that "We simply don't know" if indeed that's your idea - I'm sorry I don't know.
Nicely said. For whatever reason this zealous rejection of rebirth and trying to convinces other to do the same that we have seen here and on other forums has been coming almost exclusively from Buddhadasa-ites.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PaulC
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by PaulC »

Craig, do you have a source for that quote on rebirth?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that much of Ajahn Buddhadasa's appeal, especially to students in the 70s, was as a result of his having embraced notions of "Buddhist Socialism" (not dissimilar to those of E.F. Schumacher, I think).

Donald Swearer's engagement with him also fostered a respect for Christian mysticism.

In respect to Zen ... As of 1983 I'm pretty sure the books on Hui Neng and Huang Po (in Thai translations) were the only two he'd read ...

Though I might be entirely wrong about this, my feeling about him was/is that he was basically a scholar monk, with a very solid anapanasati practice.

When I read his work I don't really get the feeling (as I do with Ajahn Chah) that direct realisation is leaping off the page at me.

But, as I say, that may be due to my not having been all that impressed with Ajahn Buddhadasa, personally.

And also, perhaps, to some degree due to my possible (mis-)conceptions as to how things should be with enlightened sages.

Paul
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retrofuturist
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

To quote Buddhadasa Bhikkhu....
Now we come to the third question which they will ask: When there is no atta, then what is reborn? What or who is reborn? Forgive us for being forced to use crude language, but this question is absurd and crazy. In Buddhism, there is no point in asking such a thing. There is no place for it in Buddhism. If you ask what will be reborn next, that's the craziest, most insane question. If right here, right now, there is no soul, person, self, or atta, how could there be some "who" or "someone" that goes and gets reborn? So there is no way one can ask "who will be reborn?"Therefore, the rebirth of the same person does not occur. But the birth of different things is happening all the time. It happens often and continuously, but there is no rebirth. There is no such thing, in reality, as rebirth or reincarnation.
I don't see anything here that denies the kind of post-mortem continuance that the Buddha taught. This is just a stock-standard awareness of the Buddha's key anatta doctrine and that "If right here, right now, there is no soul, person, self, or atta, how could there be some "who" or "someone" that goes and gets reborn?". Rightly so.

Maybe somewhere Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did actually deny any form of post-mortem continuance, but I've yet to see it. I tend to think that sometimes people just grab a quote out of context (e.g. "There is no such thing, in reality, as rebirth or reincarnation.") and use that to push a different argument... either that there is no post-mortem continuance, or that Buddhadasa went against the teachings of the Buddha. I see nothing in the above quote that supports either of those views.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Individual
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Individual »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

To quote Buddhadasa Bhikkhu....
Now we come to the third question which they will ask: When there is no atta, then what is reborn? What or who is reborn? Forgive us for being forced to use crude language, but this question is absurd and crazy. In Buddhism, there is no point in asking such a thing. There is no place for it in Buddhism. If you ask what will be reborn next, that's the craziest, most insane question. If right here, right now, there is no soul, person, self, or atta, how could there be some "who" or "someone" that goes and gets reborn? So there is no way one can ask "who will be reborn?"Therefore, the rebirth of the same person does not occur. But the birth of different things is happening all the time. It happens often and continuously, but there is no rebirth. There is no such thing, in reality, as rebirth or reincarnation.
I don't see anything here that denies the kind of post-mortem continuance that the Buddha taught. This is just a stock-standard awareness of the Buddha's key anatta doctrine and that "If right here, right now, there is no soul, person, self, or atta, how could there be some "who" or "someone" that goes and gets reborn?". Rightly so.

Maybe somewhere Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did actually deny any form of post-mortem continuance, but I've yet to see it. I tend to think that sometimes people just grab a quote out of context (e.g. "There is no such thing, in reality, as rebirth or reincarnation.") and use that to push a different argument... either that there is no post-mortem continuance, or that Buddhadasa went against the teachings of the Buddha. I see nothing in the above quote that supports either of those views.

Metta,
Retro. :)
A long time ago, I remember reading Element quote Buddhadhasa as saying that the "gandhabba" mechanism of rebirth equates with the egg and sperm. I wouldn't say this is necessarily a denial of rebirth, but it doesn't seem to be the same kind of "post-mortem continuance," in any kind of Buddhism, including classical Theravada. Claiming there is a mystical gandhabba, which is not simply scientifically observable reality, whether it's like a floating spirit in Mahayana, or whatever Classical Theravada's notion of it is, leaves the door open for reincarnation-ish theories... which I think falls under the phrase "post-mortem continuance." That phrase seems like a synonym for reincarnation. There is continuance of causality, but not personality. But if causality is non-differentiated, how is it that anything is "born" at all, and causality isn't a process which exists outside of (being the basis for) time?
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Individual,
Individual wrote:... which I think falls under the phrase "post-mortem continuance." That phrase seems like a synonym for reincarnation. There is continuance of causality, but not personality
I coined the phrase "post-mortem continuance" particularly to demonstrate what I have bolded in your post above. The words "rebirth" and "reincarnation" both suggest there is something to "re"... which seems to be the thrust of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's objections which I quoted above.

Indeed there is no "re", but that doesn't mean that the causal aspect of the four mental aggregates which continued throughout life suddenly cease to have corresponding effects, simply because what we conventionally call "death" has occurred.

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's concern seemed to be that views of rebirth and reincarnation had the potential to blind people from the reality of anatta.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Maybe somewhere Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did actually deny any form of post-mortem continuance, ...
I doubt it. In "The heartwood of the Bodhi tree" he talks about how to train to maximise the possibility of becoming an Arahant at the point of death. The whole development in that chapter would be a little pointless if he was denying that there is no causal continuation.

Mike
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Well there we go... that firmly places the onus on those who claimed Buddhadasa Bhikkhu denied any form of post-mortem continuance to find real evidence (i.e. not just out of context snippets) to back up their claims.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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zerotime
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by zerotime »

Respectfully, I think some people must read more things of Buddhadhasa before these precipitated judices.

Those of yours who claim Buddhadhasa is overly intellectual, please compare in this thread http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 134#p23134" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; the texts cited by some people with that from Buddhadhasa cited by myself. What is the more intellectual approach?

This cite:
"It happens often and continuously, but there is no rebirth. There is no such thing, in reality, as rebirth or reincarnation" is not the deny of rebirth but the deny of a concrete (and widely spread) understanding of rebirth. When one is able to understand that explanation rebirth is not a subject to be affirmed or denied.

ask:

- How rebirth can be possible when there is not a self to continue?
- How non-rebirth can be possible when finally there is not a self to die?.

Paticcasamuppada is a deep teaching. Buddhadhasa was able to develop two levels for the explanation. One level is what he named of "Dhamma language". Another level is the common view, in where arises the discussion about rebirth or non.rebirth. One need read and study Buddhadhasa carefully before talking about his teaching.

On my side, I think one must be always far to judge the teaching of wise people with the feeling of being in a supermarket, choosing this or that, to satisfy our intellectual pleasures. Instead that, one must look this wisdom assortment like the sick person inside a medical store: luckily here there is a good assortment of medicines. What medicine can be good for my illness?. We can take the pill if we don't like suppositories but we cannot add doubts over the rest that we don't know neither we have tested.

best,
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Zerotime,

Yes that's the part of "Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree" I was thinking of:
...
Let that feeling of volunteering for the remainderless extinction, that readiness to accept it be a partner of the mind until the very end. With this skilful means the mind will be able to dissolve itself into the emptiness that is Nibbana. This is the practice at the moment of physical death for those of little knowledge. With it an unlearned grandma or granddad can reach the final extinction. We call it the skilful means of turning a fall from a ladder into a measured leap.
...
To die in the right way we must be brave with Dhamma, and die having victory over death, die realizing emptiness in the last second of life. Please remember well, there is an opportunity right up to the last moment.
...
Emptiness is present in all things; it is their characteristic. If the mind is empty of grasping at and clinging to all things, then it is itself emptiness, the remainderless extinction of 'I' and 'mine' and there is no more birth.
I think you are misunderstanding what I meant about Ajahn Buddhadasa. I did not mean "intellectual" in a negative sense, and I certainly didn't say "overly intellectual". I meant that his speaking/writing is quite complex and carefully reasoned out. Because it is like that it is useful to study it carefully, not just pull out "sound bites" (as I just did :)).

[In my opinion, sound bites of Ajahn Chah are generally useless too, but for a different reason. For Ajahn Chah context is incredibly important, and his talks seem to be extremely focussed on the particular audience. I don't get that feeling from Ajahn Buddhadasa - I do not get the impression that his teachings are such a direct "reaction" to the particular situation as with Ajahn Chah.]

Metta
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by jcsuperstar »

for me the 2 buddhadasa sides are element who claims he denied rebirth outright and santikaro who lived with him who claims he believed in rebirth but was just not a believer in the old 3 lifetimes model and if you read his reasons i have to agree with buddhadasa, buddhaghosa's 3 lifetimes model seems to me and it seemed to buddhadasa to deny the possability of ever ending samasara cause you always have this future life where kamma plays out so you could never find nibbana in this life only in a future life, which is much like a carrot leading a horse, he never gets the carrot just keeps going forward. also buddhadasa was very insistent on all suffering being boiled down to a belief in me, and mine or what is basicaly a self (atta). its a very fine line to walk because it can easily make one slide off into the sorts of arguments we see about denying rebirth etc.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by kc2dpt »

jcsuperstar wrote:buddhaghosa's 3 lifetimes model seems to me and it seemed to buddhadasa to deny the possability of ever ending samasara cause you always have this future life where kamma plays out so you could never find nibbana in this life only in a future life
That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

jcsuperstar,
Peter wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:buddhaghosa's 3 lifetimes model seems to me and it seemed to buddhadasa to deny the possability of ever ending samasara cause you always have this future life where kamma plays out so you could never find nibbana in this life only in a future life
That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Probably not the most polite response possible to your statement, but if you would be so kind as to elaborate on what you mean by: " you always have this future life where kamma plays out so you could never find nibbana in this life only in a future life."

While the three life model is not explicitly found in the suttas, paticcasamuppada in the moment to moment model or the three life model is both circular and moves through time, past, present, and future. There is nothing in the three life model that denies kamma being made and coming to fruition in this life and doing so even moment to moment. The three life model certainly does not negate nibbana here and now, particularly cutting the links between feeling and craving. And the moment to moment model does not in any meaningful way negate paticcasamuppada being used to explain rebirth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by jcsuperstar »

if you read buddhadasa's explination it makes sense. but basically it states if the kamma we make has to be drawn out over 3 lives then you always have to have a future life, even if you stopped making kamma right now your past kamma from this life isnt gonna end till the next life so you still have 1 more life. or something like that. the main point is that if youre always working with three lives you cant end it in this life. but if youre not always working with 3 lives whats the point of a 3 life model?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by zerotime »

Hi mike,
sorry, my comment was not because your comments. Anyway I include myself in the bad behaviour of supermarket, which is rooted in us from our childhood. In front many good things we tend to point to the "the best" disminishng the rest, and without reallizing all them are of value.

I'm with jcsuperstar in feeling the same brahmanist smell in Buddhaghosa. However, here in the West we don't have the same problems derived of the 3 lives scheme than we can check in the East. And without all that superstition associated with the 3 lives scheme, then also it can be useful to investigate some things. In example to deny the non-rebirth!! :)
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