What is the last thing to let go?

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What is the last thing to let go?

Postby SarathW » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:06 am

I am just think in term of six senses and ten fetters. Is there something you let go last? Say I let go my eye, ear, tongue etc consciousness.
I think all this is not me, mine myself in terms of mental formations and body.

But "I" still see "I" am sitting here and writing this post.

So how can "I" let go everything and dive into Nirvana? :)
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby Murkve » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:27 am

It is my understanding that the absolute last thing to be let go is attachment to Dhamma.

However in terms of the dismantling of the self, I am not sure of the order here. I'd be very interested in how this is accomplished as well.
"Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal." - Arthur Schopenhauer
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby equilibrium » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:28 am

SarathW wrote:.....
So does one who reaches Nirvana becomes blind & deaf.....or lose all six senses and associated consciousness?
Would one who dies enters Nirvana?
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:17 am

Conceit, restlessness, & ignorance are the last to go. Craving for sense pleasures comes to an end before these but that does not mean that ones senses do not function.

Metta

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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby ground » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:00 am

Life. :sage:
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby manas » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:20 am

SarathW wrote:I am just think in term of six senses and ten fetters. Is there something you let go last? Say I let go my eye, ear, tongue etc consciousness.
I think all this is not me, mine myself in terms of mental formations and body.

But "I" still see "I" am sitting here and writing this post.

So how can "I" let go everything and dive into Nirvana? :)


What, like, right now?
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby equilibrium » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:11 pm

SarathW wrote:.....
Maybe of interest.
AN 10.13-Fetters:

"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters.
And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters.
And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters.
And these are the ten fetters."

MN 118: Mindfulness of Breathing:

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only one more time to this world — will make an ending to stress...
"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of the five lower fetters, are due to be reappear [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world...
"In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis...

The Abhidhamma in Practice: under Nibbaana: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... l#nibbaana
.....We will recognize these sign-posts when the fetters that bind us are broken in succession. When the first three fetters — personality view, doubt, and clinging to mere rules and rituals — are broken one becomes a "stream enterer" (sotaapanna), one who has entered the stream to nibbaana. The fetters, once broken, will never bind such a person again. This is the truth he knows without uncertainty. The stream-enterer will not be reborn in the four lower planes of existence. He will take rebirth seven times at the most, either in the human or heavenly planes.

When the next two fetters — sensuous craving and ill-will are attenuated, one becomes a "once-returner" (sakadaagaamii), due to return only once to the sense sphere world and then attain nibbaana.

When all the lower five fetters are eradicated, the disciple becomes a "non-returner" (anaagaami), who will never return to the sense sphere world but, after death, will be reborn in a pure divine abode and attain nibbaana there.

One who takes the next major step and eradicates the five higher fetters — desire for existence in fine material planes, desire for existence in the immaterial planes, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance — reaches the final goal. He is the arahant, free from all future becoming.
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby equilibrium » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:23 pm

Something of interest.....
Based on your other recent thread & pdf: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=16202&p=231246#p231246
A Manual of Abhidhamma: under "The Realisation of Nibbana" on Page 84 as follows:

Having thus gained a correct view of the real nature of his self, freed from the false notion of an identical substance of mind and matter, he attempts to investigate the cause of this “Ego-personality”. He realises that everything worldly, himself not excluded, is conditioned by causes past or present, and that this existence is due to past ignorance (avijjà), craving (taõhà), attachment (upàdàna), Kamma, and physical food (àhàra) of the present life.

On account of these five causes this personality has arisen and as the past activities have conditioned the present, so the present will condition the future. Meditating thus, he transcends all doubts with regard to the past, present, and future (Kankhàvitaraõavisuddhi). Thereupon he contemplates that all conditioned things are transient (Anicca), subject to suffering (Dukkha), and devoid of an immortal soul (Anattà). Wherever he turns his eyes, he sees nought but these three characteristics standing out in bold relief.

He realises that life is a mere flowing, a continuous undivided movement. Neither in a celestial plane nor on earth does he find any genuine happiness, for every form of pleasure is only a prelude to pain. What is transient is therefore subject to suffering and where change and sorrow prevail there cannot be a permanent ego.
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby Chi » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:02 pm

Ignorance of the Three Characteristics and the Four Noble Truths. Any trace of doubt regarding these.

An Arahant does not create new karma as any trace of a person creating karma is eradicated. However, he/she still must live with the ripening of old karma.
Do Good, Avoid Evil, Purify the Mind.
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby anjali » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:55 pm

SarathW wrote:Is there something you let go last?


Letting go of letting go...
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby drifting cloud » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:13 am

equilibrium wrote:So does one who reaches Nirvana becomes blind & deaf.....or lose all six senses and associated consciousness?


It's not a question of becoming blind and deaf; an arahat still receives sensory input so long as they are alive and have functioning organs and are in contact with sensible objects. Rather, it's that the links of affliction and attachment to the objects of the six senses are severed:

Nandaka: 'Sisters, it is just as if an adept butcher or butcher's apprentice, having killed a cow, were to carve it up with a sharp carving knife so that — without damaging the substance of the inner flesh, without damaging the substance of the outer hide — he would cut, sever, & detach only the skin muscles, connective tissues, & attachments in between; and having cut, severed, & detached the outer skin, and then covering the cow again with that very skin, he were to say that the cow was actually joined to the skin: Would he be speaking rightly?'

'No, sir. Why is that?... because no matter how much he might say that the cow was actually joined to the skin, the cow would still be disjoined from the skin.'

'This simile, sisters, I have given to convey a message. The message is this: The substance of the inner flesh stands for the six inner sense spheres [the senses]; the substance of the outer hide stands for the six outer sense spheres [their objects]. The skin muscles, connective tissues, & attachments in between stand for passion & delight. And the sharp knife stands for noble discernment, which cuts, severs, & detaches the defilements, fetters, & attachments in between.'
MN 146
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby drifting cloud » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:23 am

SarathW wrote:I am just think in term of six senses and ten fetters. Is there something you let go last?


The fetters are probably the best way to think of this; the last fetters that the arahat severs are:

desire for material rebirth
desire for immaterial rebirth
conceit
restlessness
ignorance

Based on this it appears that fundamental ignorance is the last fetter to be uprooted; since this is the root cause of suffering identified in the 12 links of dependent origination, ending this would put an end to "this whole mass of suffering".

The ending of the last five fetters is described in the Khemaka Sutta:

"In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated."


An extremely subtle clinging to self seems to be last thing to let go of.
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby SarathW » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:44 am

It appears Equanimity is the last thing to go!
:shrug:
==============
Whatever the case, even though the equanimity of these higher states of
concentration is superior to ordinary equanimity at the senses, it can act as an
object of clinging and so stand in the way of awakening.................
He does not relish that equanimity, does not
welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he doesn’t relish that
equanimity, doesn’t welcome it, doesn’t remain fastened to it, his
consciousness isn’t dependent on it, doesn’t cling to/isn’t sustained by it.
Without clinging/sustenance, finanda, a monk is totally unbound.
Page 39:
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... 120810.pdf
=========
I am not sure where Equanimity is fitting with 10 fetters.
:thinking:
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby pegembara » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:16 am

SarathW wrote:I am just think in term of six senses and ten fetters. Is there something you let go last? Say I let go my eye, ear, tongue etc consciousness.
I think all this is not me, mine myself in terms of mental formations and body.

But "I" still see "I" am sitting here and writing this post.

So how can "I" let go everything and dive into Nirvana? :)





"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelingsare mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... apatti.htm


This "I" am is asmi mana ("conceit") which Ven Khemaka was talking about. The way to break it is through the perception of impermanence ie. seeing how the idea "I am" arises and ceases.

Then Ven. Dasaka went to the elder monks and, on arrival, said to them, "The monk Khemaka has said to me, 'Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, "I am" has not been overcome, although I don't assume that "I am this."'"

"In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby SarathW » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:24 am

Thanks.
cessation of perception & feeling is not Nirvana.
cessation of perception & feeling can be attain by Anagami's as well. (I think)
Mental fabrications consist subtle and gross perceptions and feelings.
So the question I have is what is the most subtle mental fabrication.
:)
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby Ananda26 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:25 pm

SarathW wrote:I am just think in term of six senses and ten fetters. Is there something you let go last? Say I let go my eye, ear, tongue etc consciousness.
I think all this is not me, mine myself in terms of mental formations and body.

But "I" still see "I" am sitting here and writing this post.

So how can "I" let go everything and dive into Nirvana? :)


If you are eager to attain Nirvana in this life you should prepare to become a monastic, because that is the nature of Arahants to like the monastic way of life.

All 10 fetters are abandoned by an Arahant. With the complete abandoning of the the 5 lower fetters one has become a Never Returner, one has become due to be spontaneously reborn and shall there attain Nirvana without ever returning from that world. With the abandoning of 3 fetters and the weakening of lust, hatred, and delusion one has become a Once Returner and having returned once more to this world will put an end to suffering. With the abandoning of 3 fetters one has become a Stream Winner, no more subject to rebirth in hell, no more subject to rebirth as an animal, no more subject to rebirth as a peta ghost, fixed in destiny with enlightenment as destination.

About the 6 sense bases, you can abandon obsession with the 6 sense bases, but still cultivate those bases in a way that causes unwholesome states to be abandon, and wholesome states to increase.
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Re: What is the last thing to let go?

Postby david.sojourn » Tue May 06, 2014 5:50 pm

SarathW wrote:I am just think in term of six senses and ten fetters. Is there something you let go last? Say I let go my eye, ear, tongue etc consciousness.
I think all this is not me, mine myself in terms of mental formations and body.

But "I" still see "I" am sitting here and writing this post.

So how can "I" let go everything and dive into Nirvana? :)


You're better off diving into a swimming pool.

At least there is something in the swimming pool.

Have you tried finding the happiness in your life lately? Or are you just focusing on trying desperately to get out of it?

Sounds like the latter to me.
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