the first jhana and thinking.

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Sylvester
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:02 am


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daverupa
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby daverupa » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:16 pm


Sylvester
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:43 pm

Ok, fair enough. I get slightly different mileage from the traditional presentation that the arupas are aspects of the 4th jhana, at least from the affective dimension. That much seems to be suggested by texts such as MN 106 and MN 140.

I would have thought that Wynne would figure prominently in your arsenal, but I guess even he is too heretical in his suggestion that the Nikayas and Agamas became contaminated very early with an absorption model of jhana.

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daverupa
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby daverupa » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:14 pm


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Modus.Ponens
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:33 pm

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

SarathW
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby SarathW » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:50 pm

Hi Alan
The way I understand is that only time you do not have thoughts is, when a person is dead!
When a person is in Neither perception nor non perception stage also have some thoughts.
However an Arhant in a Nirodha Samapatti stage will not have consciousness and hence no thoughts.
Please correct me if I am wrong. :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Sylvester
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:38 am


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Dmytro
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Dmytro » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:26 am



Sylvester
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:50 am


Nyana
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:58 am


Sylvester
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:12 am


Nyana
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:33 am

Last edited by Nyana on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sylvester
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:57 am

My apologies for missing that.

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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:59 pm


Nyana
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Nyana » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:48 pm


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reflection
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby reflection » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:32 pm

Hi Alan,

Instead of comparing various sources of text, you can also watch the mind. Compare a meditation where there are thoughts with a meditation where there are no thoughts for quite a while. Now which one was more peaceful? It'll be the one with no thoughts. It's this kind of peaceful meditation we want to develop, because the more peaceful, the happier. It doesn't really matter what name we give it. To call it jhana or not, to have a pali source for it or not, doesn't change a thing to the experience itself. Once you are in this kind of meditation, thoughts about how to call it, won't arise anyway.

With metta,
Reflection

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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:59 am

Thank you Geoff. I think the manojalpa definition is uniquely Yogacara (but see below). While it has its utility in the context of vipaśyanā as understood by the Yogacarins, I am hesitant to apply it to the early suttas to interpret vitakka, since the early canonical 3-vitakka model is clearly geared towards samatha. Perhaps there is something useful to be gleaned from the Yogacarins' understanding of vitakka and vipassana, since many of the Pali vipassati proxy verbs have to function in the presence of vitakka. That still needs to be studied.

If you have a copy of the Mahāyāna-saṃparigraha-śāstra, I note that the Chinese translation of this text's explanation of manojalpa (意言) does not seem restricted to only a vipaśyanā context. Tellingly, the word nimitta pops up here (相), wherein the respective function of vitarka (覺) and vicāra (觀) as manojalpa is reduced simply to 見識 (encountering/being introduced to) and 相識 (familiarising) respectively. These could be the 2 nimitta of manojalpa at their most "basic". Alternatively, the Chinese is saying that vitarka encounters the nimitta, while vicāra familiarises with the nimitta; based on the syntax, the 2nd reading seems more likely. Either way, it sounds rather like the Peṭakopadesa and the Vimuttimagga analogies. The Chinese is available here-

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/ja/T31n1595_007

Whether the translator correctly rendered the 2 Indic words into "encountering"and "familiarising" can be the matter for further study.

On a personal note, I just realised that my dad's personal name is Majestic Nimitta! :rofl:

Nyana
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Nyana » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:53 am


Sylvester
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby Sylvester » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:58 am

Perhaps Geoff. There are enough knotty passages to warrant resort to exegetical material. But it should be obvious that my skepticism about certain Abhidharmic/Abhidhammic innovations which are inconsistent with the suttas leads me to think that these are best taken with a pinch of salt. As I've said before, I have the optimism of those into Early Buddhism studies that much of the suttas are clear enough not to be lensed thru later material, to the extent that they are inconsistent.

:anjali:

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manas
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Re: the first jhana and thinking.

Postby manas » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:08 pm

It occurred to me recently, that in the first jhana, 'restlessness' has been surmounted, but not 'thinking'. But could it be that many persons conflate the two (thinking and restlessness) when they are actually two different things? This might be a long-standing source of much confusion.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."


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