The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk
robertk wrote: Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?
So their study is conditioning their view? What is the motivation or movement towards study? Is it different to the movement towards meditation? Is it being driven by different forces? Is there a higher intention?



Of course their study conditions their views, . I am sure if I read you right, do you have doubts that it does?
It is a purely impersonal process.
So, one does not choose to study Sujin's writings or to listen to her talks. It just happens?
Take the case of DF. . . .
The problem is that stories like can be found in any religion and their subdivisions, and such stories certainly do not negate the constantly ongoing choices that are being made by individuals who, for whatever set of reasons, adhere to a particular point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Hi robertk
robertk wrote:
I think motivation is conditioned by various factors, such as right view and wrong view?

Yes and the factors are not always easy to see.
robertk wrote: You have mentioned how the views put forward on this thread are ""rather an odd collective belief to hold" and how there "strong groupthink among sujin follwers here" so presumably you believe the points I made are conditioned primarily by wrong view, or if you prefer conventional terms, illogical or ridiculous (or simply odd).
The "rather an odd collective belief to hold" was "We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight." it sounded almost like doctrine. That there is "strong groupthink among sujin followers here" would seem fair but I don't think that the points you have made are conditioned primarily by wrong view. I don't think that way actually. The phrase from Ajahn Chah has come to mind a few times though "true but not right, right but not true" .
robertk wrote: For me I was happily putting them forward but if you can show that they are in opposition to the Theravada Tipitika and ancient Commentaries that would be great, please do.
I can't do that, I wouldn't have an interest in doing that and if I could what difference would it make?
robertk wrote: For your point about views being "no more personal or impersonal than anything else", I believe it is Theravada axiom that all things are anatta, impersonal, not self...
Yes but is that your perspective?
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

robertk wrote:

I think motivation is conditioned by various factors, such as right view and wrong view?

Yes and the factors are not always easy to see
Isn't that the truth!

]robertk wrote:
For your point about views being "no more personal or impersonal than anything else", I believe it is Theravada axiom that all things are anatta, impersonal, not self...

Yes but is that your perspective?
[/quote]
Yes absolutely, but as I think both of us have been indicating it is a view, right or wrong. If there is nothing deeper than intellectual acceptance my perspective could change .
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:For me I was happily putting them forward but if you can show that they are in opposition to the Theravada Tipitika
Showing that your wholesale dismissal of meditation is in opposition to the suttas has been done here, and as for the ancient Commentaries, your use and the example of NVG's use of the Visuddhimagga do not point to a skillful usage.
Maybe we like to think that we have freewill and that we can choose to do good. Or why not choose to be always fearless, never nervous. Even we are in a plane crash why not just choose to be perfectly unworried?

It seems to me in fact that fearlessness gradually comes about from seeing into anatta (at whatever level) and uncontrollabilty as one is wearing away the idea of a self who suffers, "who" needs protection; it erases, so it seems, the idea of a body that is under anyones control.
Sure, but the nice thing is that following the Buddha's teachings, by the choice of putting into practice what the Buddha stated that we should put into practice -- what we can put into practice -- we can, by choices of meditation, of the practice of sila and such, cultivate the conditions that allow us to see and to act with wisdom. As said above, there is a reason why I value doing meditation when I am sick or in pain.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings DF,

An observation which may help in understanding why your thoughts are being met with such resistance...

There appears to be a concern that by putting everything down to "conditions", which in turn have their own conditions, which have their own conditions etc... that this mode of engagement is discounting or ignoring the role of intention (cetana).

By not accounting for cetana (or perhaps insisting that cetana itself arises on account of conditions), you're discounting the notion of free will and projecting a form of fatalism. Whereas fatalism is usually depicted in terms of projecting the future from the present... what this Abhidhamma-speak and insistence on impersonal conditions is doing, is to project a form of fatalism from the past to the present.

Perhaps this is why the Buddha taught things like kamma, and not things like Abhidhamma?



Metta,
Retro. :)
Dear Retro,

I don't think the Buddha taught free will. He taught that will is a conditioned dhamma.

Fatalism means no way out. But the Buddha taught the 8 Noble fold Path which leads out of samsara. However, there's no traveler of the Path, like in the Dhammapada:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nirvana is, but not the person who enters it;

The path is, but no traveler thereon is seen."

Brgds,
D.F
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

tiltbillings wrote:
In my understanding, it is rather understanding which arises and approach a reality with sati, which is called sati- sampajana. Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it. Understanding of its conditions, however, is a factor that can condition it to arise.
Intellectual understanding has an important role to play, but if one does not actually do what is necessary to actually see “reality,” as the Buddha taught, all the intellectual “right understanding” is of limited value. Hoping for something to arise because we have amassed an intellectual understanding might work to some degree, but it is not what the Buddha taught. He taught much more based upon our ability to choose, to act, to deliberately cultivate those factors that give rise to insight/vipassana.
Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.

Brgds,
D.F
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: So when you said "I would not be able to assert to myself that her views are right if there had not been enough consideration from my own part." So that consideration was "Yoniso manasikara" and that "Yoniso manasikara" happened because the right conditions were there? It was not an activity? Amd the "consideration" was not touched or tainted?
Naturally it is not an activity. Manasikara is a cetasika which arises with all citta, it is usually translated as attention, consideration...It is yoniso manasikara when it accompanies kusala citta, and in the case of vipassana bhavana, it is accompanied by panna. Because it is yoniso, it is free from taints, at the moment it arises. If i try deliberately, however, to "considerate", it might be ayoniso manasikara, for sure.

Brgds,
D.F
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Polar Bear »

dhamma follower wrote:



I don't think the Buddha taught free will. He taught that will is a conditioned dhamma.

Fatalism means no way out. But the Buddha taught the 8 Noble fold Path which leads out of samsara. However, there's no traveler of the Path, like in the Dhammapada:
Fatalism: a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them; also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine.

In other words, if one accepts that the choices we are going to make are already determined by prior causes and conditions and that the entire universe is already determined by prior causes and conditions to unfold in a specific way then whoever is going to become an arahant is going to become one though no will of their own. It is simply the universe rolling on.

Personally, I think the buddha would have avoided these sorts of discussions though and just told us to cultivate the path, cultivate the wholesome, cultivate the seven factors of awakening, the first one being sati. Sati is something that is to be cultivated through practice, it cannot arise without the desire and intention to do so. Scientific study of meditation has proven that intentional formal practice does actually improve the mind so regardless of what anyone says, intentional formal meditation helps and I hope that every person interested in following the Dhamma will realize that.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

kirk5a wrote:
Where, in the following, do you see the requirement, the precondition, for "right understanding of reality"? Where do you see the suggestion "we can not actively make it arise"?
"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?

[1] "There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'
[/quote]

Hi Kirk,

We should not expect the Buddha explain every details in the same sutta. The conditions for right understanding are mentioned in other suttas as quoted by RobertK here and I might provide some later.

Btw, the satipatthana sutta includes both description of samatha bhavana and vipassana. Each kind of development has its own conditions.

Brgds,
D.F
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Alex123 wrote:Hello DF,
dhamma follower wrote: i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "All things are anatta"? Of course you can do it right now. This is right view.
Or
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "Atta really exists. I wonder what it is..."? Of course you can do it right now. This is wrong view.
Hi Alex,

Understanding is not repeating words. I can of course say now "All things are anatta" as you resquested without really understanding what that means. Right view is right understanding. I could now say this to a friend nearby, he might or might not understand it at all, depending on his accumulations.

brgds,
D.F
SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SamKR »

"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Hi dhamma follower
So you are saying that there has been yoniso manasikara (consideration that is free from taints) when you have come into contact with Khun Sujin's views? There is no doubt? How are you sure?

When you meet Khun Sujin do you listen?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Spiny Norman »

SamKR wrote:"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?
Right Effort is a factor of the 8-fold path, so it's looks as if intentional effort is an important aspect of practice - at least in creating the right conditions for panna to arise.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Mr Man wrote:Hi dhamma follower
So you are saying that there has been yoniso manasikara (consideration that is free from taints) when you have come into contact with Khun Sujin's views? There is no doubt? How are you sure?

When you meet Khun Sujin do you listen?
You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong. Well, of course it might be. But until now, I don't see that this understanding goes against the Buddha's teaching. Doubt will only be completely removed by sotapana magga citta, which I don't claim to have. The dhammas are so intricate and we know so little, so there is doubt about this and that characteristics of dhammas, it comes along with non-understanding, which arise more, much more often than moments of understanding.

Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

SamKR wrote:"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?
Dear Sam,

Intention arises with all cittas, so intentional and non-intentional effort don't make sense at all. Effort arises with 73 (if I'm not mistaken) out of 89, so with most cittas. It can be accompanied by either akusala or kusala cetasika. When it arises with akusala citta, it is wrong effort. The right effort of the 8NP arises with kusala citta with understanding. So it is the understanding which is the leading factor. With right understanding, there's right effort. The middle Path is also the 8NP. There's no one who practices, it is panna cetasika, together with other wholesome citta which cultivate the Path.

You might have heard about the word "samvega", which means sense of urgency. When panna understands, it gives rise to samvega, which condition ever more moments of sati-sampajana leading to the culmination of the Path. It is an empty process.

Brgds,
D.F
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